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I wish you’d stay.Sorry, but no. That is exactly what it taught millions of its members. I realize that the word "bad" might be interpreted in different ways by different readers, so if there is any doubt about that, the Catholic Church taught that the suffering in Purgatory was the same as that of Hell, except of course that it's temporary, unlike that experienced in Hell. It may also be that the souls in Purgatory are aware of this difference. None of that is real, for there really isn't any Purgatory, but that was how this Roman Catholic belief was explained to members of the Catholic Church.
As noted before, the push is now on to downplay Purgatory, redefining it as simply an adjustment period one goes through before entering Heaven.
So now I'll leave this discussion.
Sorry, but no. That is exactly what it taught millions of its members. I realize that the word "bad" might be interpreted in different ways by different readers, so if there is any doubt about that, the Catholic Church taught that the suffering in Purgatory was the same as that of Hell, except of course that it's temporary, unlike that experienced in Hell. It may also be that the souls in Purgatory are aware of this difference. None of that is real, for there really isn't any Purgatory, but that was how this Roman Catholic belief was explained to members of the Catholic Church.
As noted before, the push is now on to downplay Purgatory, redefining it as simply an adjustment period one goes through before entering Heaven.
The Catholic Church has been around for almost 2000 years. There is a lot of historical documentation, for example, I just provided some quotations from the early centuries of the Catholic Church in regard toI’m not trying to be argumentative, but what proof is there for the belief that when Catholics say the teachings of Jesus were passed down through the Apostles to the popes?
There are many religions that teach otherwise. I mean, who’s to be believed and why?
Honestly I think that there are huge differences. To the extent that they can almost be seen as two different religions.
Regarding "Change after death", we accept that there is change at death;
...
Theosis and Sanctification are not so different. Sanctification is a life long process, completed when we enter Heaven.
Certainly there are differences, however there is much we share in common; and some things we don't. We certainly share much more with both the Catholic and the Orthodox than we do with most protestants who hold either Calvinism and/or decision theology.
Yes, I recall. I no longer sail; I found the type of sailing I like was just too hard on my aging body. I mentored a great young fellow, and gave him a great deal on my boat; and he is worthy!!Thanks for your response, Mark.
In case you are wondering what this new user wants on your forum: I registered on the forum more than ten years ago. You might remember our exchange about sailing and sailing boats.
I could not remember my old login anymore. That is why I created a new one.
But Theosis IS salvation for the Orthodox. For Lutherans - actually all serious Protestants - sanctification is not salvation but justification is.
Differently from the west the Orthodox do not think in legal terms but with regards to sanctification and works playing a role in our salvation they are even worse than Rome. Polemically put: for the Orthodox Jesus is a coach who helps them on their individual way to theosis and thus salvation. A way they walk on before death and after death...
Honestly I don’t believe that there is a single point of doctrine, of liturgical practice or church practice where the Lutheran Church is closer to the Roman-Catholic or the Orthodox church than to either one of the Anglican Church, the Methodist Church or the Presbyterians.
So when and how did the idea of purgatory begin? Who came up with it?
Where did you get this from?In this spirit the monks on Mount Athos a couple of years after death inspect the remains, mainly the bones of a deceased. If it is of light colour and all the soft tissue us gone they belief this person has reached theosis. If it is of dark colour they conclude that the person has not yet reached theosis and must intensively be praid for.
Where did you get this from?
Thank you. It sounded word of mouthFrom an Orthodox monk.
I've personally witnessed a number of relics on Mt Athos, and many of them smell of myrrh. We have cotton wool that was soaked in the myrrh that continues to stream from the relics of St Demetrios of Thessaloniki, which more than a decade later still smells of myrrh. I suspect that if God wished to reveal the sanctity of a deceased monk, darkened bones would not be an obstacle.IMO, this is pure superstition: if the deceased took Tetracycline type antibiotics, particularly as an adolesent or child for acne, they will have a hard time getting into heave, because they will never be able to pray enough to whiten the poor persons bones. Other Chemotherapy and disease also discolors bones.
Thank you. It sounded word of mouth
I've personally witnessed a number of relics on Mt Athos, and many of them smell of myrrh. We have cotton wool that was soaked in the myrrh that continues to stream from the relics of St Demetrios of Thessaloniki, which more than a decade later still smells of myrrh. I suspect that if God wished to reveal the sanctity of a deceased monk, darkened bones would not be an obstacle.
There are some notable relics where the flesh has not dissolved, such as St John Chrysostom's left ear, and St Mary Magdalan's left hand, both of which I have been blessed to venerate, as well as St Nektarios whose body remained completely whole as if he were simply sleeping for 20 years after his death, after which his flesh completely dissolved.
Thank you. It sounded word of mouth
I've personally witnessed a number of relics on Mt Athos, and many of them smell of myrrh. We have cotton wool that was soaked in the myrrh that continues to stream from the relics of St Demetrios of Thessaloniki, which more than a decade later still smells of myrrh. I suspect that if God wished to reveal the sanctity of a deceased monk, darkened bones would not be an obstacle.
Great questions!
In the Lutheran Church, we recognise 2 Sacraments; Baptism and the Eucharist. However, we also sometimes talk about a third Sacrament, Holy Absolution. This is still retained in the Lutheran Church, as the Office of the Keys, the power to forgive or retain sins, belongs to the whole Christian Church. This is why we confess our sins in our services, and if anyone is burdened by sins, they are free to confess them privately to their Pastor, and the Pastor will absolve them and comfort them with the Gospel.
We rightly reject the notion of Purgatory. It's not found in the Bible, nor in the Early Church. It's a late development born out of a series of errors, and it's counter to the Gospel, for, in Christ, all our sins are paid for in full. We do not, nor cannot, pay for our own sins. Not even in part. So, needless to say, Mass for the dead - Prayers and sacrifice made for people to shorten their time in Purgatory - is very problematic. It's a bit of a long walk to explain how Purgatory developed, but it comes out of a wrong understanding of Sin and Justification.
It's not common, but some Lutherans use a kind of rosary, only it doesn't include any prayers to Mary or saints. It's simply used as a tool or reminder to be diligent in prayer. I don't use it myself, but I can recognise it as an adiaphoron - something neither commanded nor forbidden by Scriptures.
The reason why the Roman Catholic Church retain these doctrines and practices has to do with where we get our authority from. Perhaps it's helpful with a simple comparison:
Authority in the Roman Catholic Church: The Roman Catholic Church, which includes Scriptures, Tradition, and the Pope. Given the succession of the Papal office, their Tradition is somewhat progressive (in contrast to Eastern Orthodox who also holds to Scriptures and Tradition, but which ended with the Ecumenical Councils in 787. So their Tradition is somewhat fixed).
Authority in the Lutheran Church: Scriptures alone. Though we still value Church history and tradition.
Most informative.Regarding Lutherans prayers for the dead, here are some articles:
Prayers for the Dead: A Scriptural and Lutheran Worldview — Shepherd of the Hills
https://www.reddit.com/r/LCMS/comments/ci4y3k/could_a_lutheran_pray_for_those_who_had_already/
Holy Cross Evangelical Lutheran Church (LCMS) - Pastor's Corner - : December 2017
While it may not be universally common individually, it is in our Funeral/Committal liturgies and in the blessing of a grave.Most informative.
Sorry to see that praying for the dead is so uncommon among confessing Lutherans. Of course it is becoming uncommon among Catholics of a certain sort who now seem to think everyone goes to heaven automatically, whether they were believers or not, militant atheists or not, faithful or not so much. All dogs go to heaven I can understand maybe, but the presumption that all our friends and neighbors and relatives go to heaven (right away too) is rather shaky. It doesn't seem to be what Jesus was saying.
How does a Lutheran pastor give the Eucharist to the homebound or those in the hospital? Doesn’t the Host cease to be Jesus after communion after worship is over? Does the Pastor confect the Eucharist at ones bedside, or what?
So when and how did the idea of purgatory begin? Who came up with it?
Purgatory is a teaching handed down from Jesus through the Apostles and popes. The Jewish practice of praying for the dead (which supports purgatory) is documented in the OT. Luther's new religion did not include purgatory and so he dropped Maccabees from his version of Holy Scripture (Luther was able to get some, but not all of the books he wanted dropped from his version of the Bible, for example, Revelation remains.). The practice of Jews praying for the dead is also documented in other books during OT times, and Jews still pray for the dead today. Maccabees were kept within the physical bindings of the King James for historical purposes until the 1800s. A lot Protestants have a misunderstanding of the history of Catholic doctrine. A Council may bring up various theological points for a variety of reasons, such as great heresy taking place or real questions about specific details. That does not mean one should assume that is where the teaching first occurred or was first accepted. Theologians debated questions over the centuries, in the case of purgatory for example, did we know whether it is a state or a place? Back in the early 200s Tertullian
said:
"This place, the Bosom of Abraham, though not in Heaven, and yet above hell, offers the souls of the righteous an interim refreshment until the end of all things brings about the general resurrection and the final reward." (Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4:34, before 220 A.D.)
"Indeed she [a widow] prays for his [her husband's] soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection [Heaven]. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the Sacrifice [i.e., has a Mass said for him]." (Tertullian, On Monagomy, 212 A.D.)
This may have been answered already, I'm only on the second page of the thread. But from what I've seen, the earliest inclination of such a notion seems to be in St. Augustine. He doesn't present it as a matter of fact, but rather seems to speak of it far more hypothetically.
-CryptoLutheran
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