Purgatory

[bbbbbbb]

Well that is an entirely different question.

I do not see the Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception described or referred to in the Bible, although I find some of the "type" arguments based on the ark of the covenant and so forth to be quite persuasive.

Precisely, which is analogous to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Catholics believe that Purgatory is hinted at or implied in the Bible and they find such hints or implications to be persuasive.

That said, other Christian groups as well as other unorthodox denominations follow such a pattern in their doctrinal development. A classic case is that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (aka Mormons) who developed the practice of proxy baptism for dead folks based on one single verse in I Corinthians 15.

 

[Valletta]

It would help the discussion if you just answered the question. Where in the Bible is the immaculate conception of Mary described or referred to?

As I've said so many times, the Bible is not a history book nor was it ever intended to contain all of history or all of the Word of God. Were that so the Catholic Church would have said so, could have put a preface in the Bible. The religion to recognize the Bible as sole authority happened many many centuries later.

 

[Valletta]

Precisely, which is analogous to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Catholics believe that Purgatory is hinted at or implied in the Bible and they find such hints or implications to be persuasive.

That said, other Christian groups as well as other unorthodox denominations follow such a pattern in their doctrinal development. A classic case is that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (aka Mormons) who developed the practice of proxy baptism for dead folks based on one single verse in I Corinthians 15.

The Bible came from the Catholic Church. The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around. Catholic doctrine came before the Bible, when the Catholic Church chose the books of the Bible any text that was not 100% in compliance with Catholic teaching was rejected. Protestants and Latter Day Saints came long after the Catholic Church chose the books of the Bible.

 

[Valletta]

Part of it. The second part of the Hail Mary was added by the order of a recent Pope, and that section is the most doctrinally questionable part of the prayer.

The Rosary is solid doctrine.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As I've said so many times, the Bible is not a history book nor was it ever intended to contain all of history or all of the Word of God. Were that so the Catholic Church would have said so, could have put a preface in the Bible. The religion to recognize the Bible as sole authority happened many many centuries later.

I find it singularly peculiar that the Catholic Church which elevated four of five Marian doctrines to dogmatic status, has no historical record or biblical support for any of the five.

It would seem to be relatively logical that someone might have mentioned an event of which was equal to the ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven (i.e. the Assumption of Mary) but nobody bothered to breathe a word of it in the centuries following its alleged occurrence. Why is that? And who were the snoops that monitored the personal life of Joseph and Mary to ascertain without any doubt that they never consummated their marriage?

In like manner, the RCC created the doctrine of Purgatory much later, so that no other branch of Christianity has anything to match it.

The only reason for believing these dogmas and doctrines has nothing at all to do with objective proof, but all to do with faith in the RCC.

 

[Swag365]

Precisely, which is analogous to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Catholics believe that Purgatory is hinted at or implied in the Bible and they find such hints or implications to be persuasive.

Well at least for me, I believe the doctrine because the Catholic Church teaches the doctrine, and I have faith that God has placed me in the Church where he wants me to be. I find the "implicit" arguments persuasive from a purely academic standpoint, but that's not why I believe the doctrine.

That said, other Christian groups as well as other unorthodox denominations follow such a pattern in their doctrinal development. A classic case is that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (aka Mormons) who developed the practice of proxy baptism for dead folks based on one single verse in I Corinthians 15.

Well the classic case of inventing doctrine that is found nowhere in the Bible is Protestantism of course.

 

[Swag365]

I find it singularly peculiar that the Catholic Church which elevated four of five Marian doctrines to dogmatic status, has no historical record or biblical support for any of the five.

Well I'm not sure why you should find that peculiar. Most of the major doctrines that came out of the Protestant Reformation have no historical record or biblical support.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well at least for me, I believe the doctrine because the Catholic Church teaches the doctrine, and I have faith that God has placed me in the Church where he wants me to be. I find the "implicit" arguments persuasive from a purely academic standpoint, but that's not why I believe the doctrine.

Well the classic case of inventing doctrine that is found nowhere in the Bible is Protestantism of course.

The Mormons do, indeed, have biblical support for baptism for the dead, albeit only one verse in the Bible, wrenched from its context.

Sadly, Protestants do not have a monopoly on such antics. The RCC and EOC engaged in it centuries before Luther was even born.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well I'm not sure why you should find that peculiar. Most of the major doctrines that came out of the Protestant Reformation have no historical record or biblical support.

On that, of course, we heartily disagree. That said, I do understand your POV.

 

[ripple the car]

So i would like see scriptures considering this subject. Are there any scriptures which clearly tells us that this place exist?

Matthew 5:23-26

 

[Albion]

As I've said so many times, the Bible is not a history book nor was it ever intended to contain all of history or all of the Word of God.

I didn't say it was meant to contain all of history. No one says that, to the best of my knowledge. But first you talked as though the Bible does hold the answers, then you reduced that to saying there are inferences (in your personal opinion), and now it's arrived at "no, the Bible is not what the Church turns to for answers about its doctrines nor need it do so."

It looks like we've finally arrived at "because it seemed like a good idea."

 

[Albion]

Well I'm not sure why you should find that peculiar. Most of the major doctrines that came out of the Protestant Reformation have no historical record or biblical support.

Give us your own four or five examples of that fact, then.

 

[Swag365]

I didn't say it was meant to contain all of history. No one says that, to the best of my knowledge. But first you talked as though the Bible does hold the answers, then you reduced that to saying there are inferences (in your personal opinion), and now it's arrived at "no, the Bible is not what the Church turns to for answers about its doctrines nor need it do so."

It looks like we've finally arrived at "because it seemed like a good idea."

No, this is a false characterization of his/her stance. Another straw-man.

 

[Major1]

Well let's start with Luke 1:28. That is where the "Hail Mary" in the Rosary comes from.

Would you like me to show you where the "Our Father" in the Rosary comes from?

Good start. However, it will make absolutely no difference to you what is said. YOU are embedded in Catholic dogma.

Matthew 6:7.........
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.".

Fact is = the Rosary consists of 53 Hail Mary’s!!!!

As for the “Hail Mary”, it is divided into two parts.
The first part is scriptural.
“Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28)
“Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus” (Luke 1:42)

The second part is not.
Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death. Amen”

In the “Hail Mary” Jesus’ mother is referred to as the “Mother of God.” To support that belief, the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus declared Mary the Mother of God in 431AD. (Incidentally, Ephesus was the center of worship to Artemis a pagan god.)

Historical Fact =
Roman Catholics borrowed the idea of praying with beads from the pagan religions who were already using them hundreds of years before: In 456 AD, Hindus are thought to have introduced the concept of praying with beads to the world. The earliest reference to a rosary (boberkhas) is in their "Jain Canon" (456 AD) These boberkhas had various numbers of beads 6,9,12,18,36 (any sub-multiple of 108) Islam (610 AD) uses a rosary of 99 beads, one for each of the names of God. Buddhists have 108 prayer beads on the string. The Rosary is of pagan origin and no Christian prior to 1000 AD used beads to pray.
The Truth about catholicism: The TRUTH about the rosary, 1

 

[Major1]

You don't believe that Mary was conceived?

Of course she was.

As a Catholic believer, are you not aware of the Catholic doctrine of "Immaculate Conception of Mary".

May I explain it to you then,

The Immaculate Conception refers to the sinless state of Mary. Pope Pius IX proclaimed this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on December 8, 1854.

The Immaculate Conception doctrine states that Mary, "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin." Immaculate, meaning "without stain," implies that Mary herself was preserved from original sin at conception, that she was born without a sin nature, and that she lived a sinless life.

The problem with it is that there is NO Bible support for it. NONE! ZERO! NADA!

Interestingly, even the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia (NACE) states, "No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture."

Romans 3:23......
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

But again......it will make NO difference to you what is shown to you.

 

[Major1]

Once again, the Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around. When the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible any text that was not 100% in compliance with Catholic teaching was rejected. The Bible contains texts that the Catholic Church decided were God-breathed, it is not an instruction book or Catechism, and does not contain all of God's Word nor all of history--it was NEVER intended to do so nor does it say it does. God cannot be confined to a book. The Bible does not contain all customs AND practices, it also never was intended to do so nor is such stated in the Bible. For example, churches were not built until maybe ten or twenty years after Constantine allowed freedom of religion. The practice of worshiping God in a church that contained or had a cross on top of it is not in the Bible, this, like so many other Catholic customs, has been adopted by Protestants. The rosary, for example, is very much praying the Bible. Who is against praying the Bible? We meditate on many Biblical mysteries, the Annunciation, the Nativity, the Resurrection, etc. Try it.

I do not agree.

The Bible is the book of God!

IF we consider the word "catholic" as meaning "universal," then everyone will readily admit that the writers were "catholic" in that sense; they were members of the church universal--the church of Christ which is described in the New Testament Scriptures (Col. 1:18; Rom. 16:16).

However, everyone except Catholic believers will firmly deny that the writers of the New Testament were members of the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today. The Roman Catholic Church was not fully developed until several hundred years after the New Testament was written. It is not the same institution as disclosed in the New Testament. The New Testament books were written by members of the Lord's church, but they are not its author. God Himself is the author of the New Testament.

Now then, a very simple, common sense and logical question. If the Bible is a Catholic book, why does it nowhere mention the Catholic Church?
Why is there no mention of a pope?
Why is there no mention of a cardinal.?
Why is there no mention of a an archbishop.?
Why is there no mention of a parish priest"
Why is there no mention of a nun"
Why is there no mention or a member of any other Catholic order?
Why is there no mention of an auricular confession.
Why is there no mention of indulgences.
Why is there no mention of prayers to the saints.
Why is there no mention of adoration of Mary.
Why is there no mention of the veneration of relics and images
Why is there no mention of the rites and ceremonies of the Catholic Church, left out of it?

 

[Albion]

Historical Fact =
Roman Catholics borrowed the idea of praying with beads from the pagan religions who were already using them hundreds of years before: In 456 AD, Hindus are thought to have introduced the concept of praying with beads to the world. The earliest reference to a rosary (boberkhas) is in their "Jain Canon" (456 AD) These boberkhas had various numbers of beads 6,9,12,18,36 (any sub-multiple of 108) Islam (610 AD) uses a rosary of 99 beads, one for each of the names of God. Buddhists have 108 prayer beads on the string. The Rosary is of pagan origin and no Christian prior to 1000 AD used beads to pray.

It may be the case that the rosary began with the example of bead sets used by Eastern religions. But a counting device is not unChristian or contrary to Scripture.

The apparent impetus for such a device came from people who wanted to emulate the prayer life of monks. But because these were uneducated peasants, etc. to a large extent, they couldn't handle the Daily Office (the prayer regimen of the monks), so they were advised just to say the best known prayers and say a certain large number of them, keeping "score" with a string of pebbles or knots.

None of this is pagan in my view or poses any particular problems. HOWEVER, the rosary was re-invented some centuries later, allegedly when St. Dominic was said to have been instructed by the Virgin Mary in a vision, and that is the beginning of the rosary as a devotion dedicated to her, with certain alleged powers, etc.

 

[Major1]

It may be the case that the rosary began with the example of bead sets used by Eastern religions. But a counting device is not unChristian or contrary to Scripture.

The apparent impetus for such a device came from people who wanted to emulate the prayer life of monks. But because these were uneducated peasants, etc. to a large extent, they couldn't handle the Daily Office (the prayer regimen of the monks), so they were advised just to say the best known prayers and say a certain large number of them, keeping "score" with a string of pebbles or knots.

None of this is pagan in my view or poses any particular problems. HOWEVER, the rosary was re-invented some centuries later, allegedly when St. Dominic was said to have been instructed by the Virgin Mary in a vision, and that is the beginning of the rosary as a devotion dedicated to her, with certain alleged powers, etc.

I did some study on this several years ago. What you stated is true when applied to the beginning in the Catholic church, however.........

"Prayer beads originated with the Hindu faith. Using beads for devotions dates to the 8th century BC in the cult of Shiva. In India sandstone sculptures, statues ca 185 BC, show Hindus with prayer beads. The names of Hindu gods and prayers are repeated on stringed beads, called mala, separated by larger or different colored beads" (Patricia A. Dilley, A History of Praying on Beads).

"Hindu converts kept their traditional use of prayer beads. Buddhist monks always carry a strand of prayer beads, or rosary, usually of 108 beads" (Patricia A. Dilley, ibid.).
Source:NCCG.ORG, Articles & Sermons 639. The Pagan Origin of Rosary Beads (Unknown Author)

In 456 AD, Hindus are thought to have introduced the concept of praying with beads to the world. The earliest reference to a rosary (boberkhas) is in their "Jain Canon" (456 AD) These boberkhas had various numbers of beads 6,9,12,18,36 (any sub-multiple of 108) Islam (610 AD) uses a rosary of 99 beads, one for each of the names of God. Buddhists have 108 prayer beads on the string. The Rosary is of pagan origin and no Christian prior to 1000 AD used beads to pray.
Source:The Truth about catholicism: The TRUTH about the rosary, 1

• 
  

 

[Albion]

I did some study on this several years ago. What you stated is true when applied to the beginning in the Catholic church, however.........

"Prayer beads originated with the Hindu faith. Using beads for devotions dates to the 8th century BC in the cult of Shiva. In India sandstone sculptures, statues ca 185 BC, show Hindus with prayer beads.

Yes. I made mention of that. But at the same time, we cannot say that the Christian use of something to count Christian prayers amounts to the same thing or that the one item was borrowed, completely intact, from the other. If that were the case, there would be a lot of other items that would be forbidden, such as candles and bells. It's what is believed about the item...and for what purpose it is used...that makes all the difference. As I also said, when the actual "rosary" (as opposed to a simple line of beads or knots) came along a few centuries later, that's where the analysis should start.

 

[Swag365]

YOU are embedded in Catholic dogma.

Thank you for the compliment.

Matthew 6:7.........
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.".

Fact is = the Rosary consists of 53 Hail Mary’s!!!!

Now that may be the case, but they aren't meaningless repetitions. Nor was it when our Lord said the same thing three times.

As for the “Hail Mary”, it is divided into two parts.
The first part is scriptural.
“Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28)
“Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus” (Luke 1:42)

The second part is not.
Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death. Amen”

In the “Hail Mary” Jesus’ mother is referred to as the “Mother of God.” To support that belief, the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus declared Mary the Mother of God in 431AD. (Incidentally, Ephesus was the center of worship to Artemis a pagan god.)

Historical Fact =
Roman Catholics borrowed the idea of praying with beads from the pagan religions who were already using them hundreds of years before: In 456 AD, Hindus are thought to have introduced the concept of praying with beads to the world. The earliest reference to a rosary (boberkhas) is in their "Jain Canon" (456 AD) These boberkhas had various numbers of beads 6,9,12,18,36 (any sub-multiple of 108) Islam (610 AD) uses a rosary of 99 beads, one for each of the names of God. Buddhists have 108 prayer beads on the string. The Rosary is of pagan origin and no Christian prior to 1000 AD used beads to pray.
The Truth about catholicism: The TRUTH about the rosary, 1

Wait a second. Mary is not the mother of God? I find that most amusing friend. Most amusing. Who is she the mother of?