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of course He did. We ourselves could NEVER save ourselves from sin. But of course, purification (purgatory) isnt for punishment for unconfessed sin.It is not about some sins, and not others. Christ bore sins for all who come to repentance, and salvation is made available through him.
No it doesn't. You seem to have confused the Church with Catholicism.The Scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". That one Church teaches as binding truth that Purgatory exists
he's got it right!No it doesn't. You seem to have confused the Church with Catholicism.
FredVB said:God would justly remove all who are in the world from the world, all are sinners, and God would remove the world which has the curse from that, too. God is love, and as such, without being limited in it, sent the incarnation of Logos the Word with God who is God to the world, to lead any of those there showing his example to come to repentance turning from sin, to bear the sins, with his death on the cross, and to make available salvation with eternal life in him. Those in him can then be delivered from this world cursed with all the sin, and creation still groans for the deliverance which comes with the revealing of the redemption. Purification from sin comes through Christ, which is what we could not ever accomplish through what we do or go through ourselves if even through eternity. In Christ all are removed from sinful nature right away and meet him when dying in the body still of this world. Judgment on all left unrepenting still comes, and there is no deliverance from that.
2 Peter 2:24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
Isaiah 53:3-5 is quoted there.
It is not about some sins, and not others. Christ bore sins for all who come to repentance, and salvation is made available through him.
concretecamper said:that doesn't address my question. Anyone else?
concretecamper said:of course He did. We ourselves could NEVER save ourselves from sin. But of course, purification (purgatory) isnt for punishment for unconfessed sin.
Albion said:You have to understand, though, that the Church which invented Purgatory and defined it in the way that the Late Middle Ages saw things, was asserting that eternal salvation is assured for all who trust in Christ but not that there is no temporal penalty to be paid for what they had done or left undone.
If there were no such state in the afterlife as Purgatory, Mother Teresa and Francis of Assisi would enter eternity on the same grounds as the brutal dictator who made a deathbed confession and came to Christ as his Lord and Savior. If that were the case, God would be merciful but unjust (it is argued).
Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth"....
"The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth" does not equal "He will prevent any and all errors at all times."
What is there that Jesus Christ could not do that Purgatory would be able to do for anyone? Can anyone believe there is any such thing Christ cannot do and Purgatory can do?
Payment is not made for forgiveness, payment is made for justice. Nonbelievers criticize belief in God, justifiably, over that mistaken idea that God requires payment for being forgiving.
You have to understand, though, that the Church which invented Purgatory and defined it in the way that the Late Middle Ages saw things, was asserting that eternal salvation is assured for all who trust in Christ but not that there is no temporal penalty to be paid for what they had done or left undone.
If there were no such state in the afterlife as Purgatory, Mother Teresa and Francis of Assisi would enter eternity on the same grounds as the brutal dictator who made a deathbed confession and came to Christ as his Lord and Savior. If that were the case, God would be merciful but unjust (it is argued).
God could, at this moment, remove all sin from the world. Because God has not done so does not mean God cannot. It is the Word of God that nothing unclean can enter Heaven and the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible is simply what Catholics call purgatory.
A PARADOX????
Logical reasoning might scream contradiction! God cannot be both wholly merciful and just. If God is entirely merciful, He must let us evade the consequences of our sin, and He will not be just since sin goes unpunished. On the other hand, if God is fully just, He must punish our sins fully without holding back and that would mean that He is unmerciful!
How is this possible?
However, FredVB (whose post you were replying to) was referring to punishment in Purgatory for unforgiven sins and also for ones already forgiven. He wasn't talking about God's forgiveness, which isn't what Purgatory supposedly exists in order to accomplish anyway.God could, at this moment, remove all sin from the world. Because God has not done so does not mean God cannot.
...which means that when the sinner repents and throws himself upon God's mercy as Christ taught, he still faces punishment for committing the sins that were forgiven. Really?It is the Word of God that nothing unclean can enter Heaven and the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible is simply what Catholics call purgatory.
In essence.....Purgatory says that what Jesus did...was not good enough!
IN ADDITION to His work we must then experience the Purgatory process in order to be saved.
A bit of advice, it would be helpful to know what you are arguing against. It is laughable when you incorrectly state what purgatory is and then argue against it.However, FredVB (whose post you were replying to) was referring to punishment in Purgatory for unforgiven sins and also for ones already forgiven. He wasn't talking about God's forgiveness, which isn't what Purgatory supposedly exists in order to accomplish anyway.
...which means that when the sinner repents and throws himself upon God's mercy as Christ taught, he still faces punishment for committing the sins that were forgiven. Really?
A bit of advice, it would be helpful to know what you are arguing against. It is laughable when you incorrectly state what purgatory is and then argue against it.
I am sorry that the CCC is too vague for you. It doesnt mean that anyone here is free to fill in the blanks with their novel idea. Shows lack of integrity.Given the fact that sincere Catholics, including clergy, disagree with each other concerning Purgatory, it ought not come as any surprise that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is surprisingly vague at this point in time.
I dont think I've seen 1 correct post of hos when it comes to Purgatory. So follow along at your own risk.As Albion has correctly pointed out, Purgatory seems to be headed in the same direction as Limbo in Catholic theology.
I am sorry that the CCC is too vague for you. It doesnt mean that anyone here is free to fill in the blanks with their novel idea. Shows lack of integrity.
I dont think I've seen 1 correct post of hos when it comes to Purgatory. So follow along at your own risk.
so you want me to make up stuff? That would be too protestant of me.Therefore, feel free to fill in the blanks for us and enlighten us all. Thank you.
Correct. And we have to understand also that the Church cannot simply reverse itself about Purgatory, since it was the creation of a Church council and, also, because this is the Church that says it never changes and/or never has changed. As a result, the doctrine that was taught as true for half a millennium will not be flatly reversed or eliminated, but it will die a slow death, beginning with public pronouncements by clergy and the newer versions of the Catechism, describing Purgatory in imprecise and incomplete terms.Given the fact that sincere Catholics, including clergy, disagree with each other concerning Purgatory, it ought not come as any surprise that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is surprisingly vague at this point in time.
Correct. And we have to understand also that the Church cannot simply reverse itself about Purgatory, since it was the creation of a Church council and, also, because this is the Church that says it never changes and/or never has changed. As a result, the doctrine that was taught as true for half a millennium will not be flatly reversed or eliminated, but it will die a slow death, beginning with public pronouncements by clergy and the newer versions of the Catechism, describing Purgatory in imprecise and incomplete terms.
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