Purgatory!

[South Bound]

Because it exposes the errors in your positions?

No, because it's ignorant nonsense.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Diligently. Protestants most used misunderstood verse is explained below:

2 Tim. 3:14 - Protestants usually use 2 Tim. 3:16-17 to prove that the Bible is the sole authority of God's word. But examining these texts disproves their claim. Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before the Protestants' often quoted verse 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures, and Protestants generally ignore this fact.

2 Tim. 3:15 - Paul then appeals to the sacred writings of Scripture referring to the Old Testament Scriptures with which Timothy was raised (not the New Testament which was not even compiled at the time of Paul's teaching). This verse also proves that one can come to faith in Jesus Christ without the New Testament.

2 Tim. 3:16 - this verse says that Scripture is "profitable" for every good work, but not exclusive. The word "profitable" is "ophelimos" in Greek. "Ophelimos" only means useful, which underscores that Scripture is not mandatory or exclusive. Protestants unbiblically argue that profitable means exclusive.

2 Tim. 3:16 - further, the verse "all Scripture" uses the words "pasa graphe" which actually means every (not all) Scripture. This means every passage of Scripture is useful. Thus, the erroneous Protestant reading of "pasa graphe" would mean every single passage of Scripture is exclusive. This would mean Christians could not only use "sola Matthew," or "sola Mark," but could rely on one single verse from a Gospel as the exclusive authority of God's word. This, of course, is not true and even Protestants would agree. Also, "pasa graphe" cannot mean "all of Scripture" because there was no New Testament canon to which Paul could have been referring, unless Protestants argue that the New Testament is not being included by Paul.

2 Tim. 3:16 - also, these inspired Old Testament Scriptures Paul is referring to included the deuterocanonical books which the Protestants removed from the Bible 1,500 years later.

2 Tim. 3:17 - Paul's reference to the "man of God" who may be complete refers to a clergyman, not a layman. It is an instruction to a bishop of the Church. So, although Protestants use it to prove their case, the passage is not even relevant to most of the faithful.

2 Tim. 3:17 - further, Paul's use of the word "complete" for every good work is "artios" which simply means the clergy is "suitable" or "fit." Also, artios does not describe the Scriptures, it describes the clergyman. So, Protestants cannot use this verse to argue the Scriptures are complete.

Copied from Johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com

Thank you for your response, Barry. To be honest with you, not meaning to be rude, but I take the interpretation of Scripture from non-Protestant denominations (ones that do not believe in the sole authority of Scripture) with a grain of salt. I simply don't accept it.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Thank you for your response, Barry. To be honest with you, not meaning to be rude, but I take the interpretation of Scripture from non-Protestant denominations (ones that do not believe in the sole authority of Scripture) with a grain of salt. I simply don't accept it.

What do you do with this?

2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

 

[Albion]

What do you do with this?

2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Why would you assume that the reference is to something that isn't Biblical?

 

[South Bound]

What do you do with this?

2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

The first thing I would do is to look at the whole passage in its proper context and not begin in the middle. "So then" tells us that he is summarizing what he has said.

I would look at the passage and corroborating passages, possibly a commentary or other Bible study tool, to see who "we" is and what teachings he's referring to, and in what context his statements are made.

Why would you assume it is?

Because that would be a contradiction of the Bible.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Why would you assume that the reference is to something that isn't Biblical?

Why would you assume it is?

Here's more. What did Jesus teach here for these forty days?

Acts 1
3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

What do you do with this?

2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

The first thing I would do is to look at the whole passage in its proper context and not begin in the middle. "So then" tells us that he is summarizing what he has said.

I would look at the passage and corroborating passages, possibly a commentary or other Bible study tool, to see who "we" is and what teachings he's referring to, and in what context his statements are made.

He answered your question for me. I concur.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Why would you assume it is?

Here's more. What did Jesus teach here for these forty days?

Acts 1
3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

But this is only one verse. Have you considered its proper context within the whole of Scripture? Please elaborate on why you think this particular verse supports your viewpoint and position on this topic.

 

[sonshine234]

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:14-17). According to Scripture, God divinely inspired what was written in His word (1 Corinthians 2:12-13; 2 Timothy 3:14-17; 2 Peter 1:21). Every word He speaks is pure (Psalm 119:160; Proverbs 30:5-6), perfect (Psalms 18:30, 19:7) and absolute truth (Psalm 119:160). It is written that He will preserve His word for all eternity (Psalms 12:6-7, 33:11, 100:5, 111:7-8, 117:2, 119:89-90, 119:189; 152, 160; Isaiah 40:8, 59:21; 1 Peter 1:23-25) and it will not return to Him in void (Isaiah 55:11). His word, counsel and righteous judgments stand forever (Psalms 33:11; 119:160; Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:25).

None of those verses say the Bible is the only authority on God. The idea that "the Bible is the only authority on God" is man made

 

[MoreCoffee]

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:14-17).​

According to Scripture, God divinely inspired what was written in His word (1 Corinthians 2:12-13; 2 Timothy 3:14-17; 2 Peter 1:21). Every word He speaks is pure (Psalm 119:160; Proverbs 30:5-6), perfect (Psalms 18:30, 19:7) and absolute truth (Psalm 119:160).

It is written that He will preserve His word for all eternity (Psalms 12:6-7, 33:11, 100:5, 111:7-8, 117:2, 119:89-90, 119:189; 152, 160; Isaiah 40:8, 59:21; 1 Peter 1:23-25) and it will not return to Him in void (Isaiah 55:11).

His word, counsel and righteous judgments stand forever (Psalms 33:11; 119:160; Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:25).

Don't most of us agree that sacred scripture is "profitable for doctrine" and inspired? I know that I do. My Church does too. But what's that got to do with this thread? Purgatory is implied by scripture's encouragement to pray for the dead; why pray for those who are already in heaven, there's nothing better that they could receive so no prayer can add to their bliss and why pray for those in hell since they are condemned already and no prayer can reverse God's final judgement. The encouragement to pray for the dead is given in this passage:
2 Maccabees 12:38-45 KJV

(38) So Judas gathered his host, and came into the city of Odollam, And when the seventh day came, they purified themselves, as the custom was, and kept the sabbath in the same place.
(39) And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves.
(40) Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain.
(41) All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid,
(42) Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain.
(43) And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:
(44) For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.
(45) And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.​

The implication here is that both the prayers offered for the dead and the sin offering that was offered for them was reconciling them to God after they died. That is precisely what purgatory and prayers for the dead and offering the mass for their benefit is about.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

None of those verses say the Bible is the only authority on God. The idea that "the Bible is the only authority on God" is man made

Sola Scriptura is better explained in this article here: What is Sola Scriptura?. And it explains why it is so important.

To quote from the article:

The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture. Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and keep personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible. The essence of sola scriptura is basing your spiritual life on the Bible alone and rejecting any tradition or teaching that is not in full agreement with the Bible. Second Timothy 2:15 declares, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.”

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Don't most of us agree that sacred scripture is "profitable for doctrine" and inspired? I know that I do. My Church does too. But what's that got to do with this thread? Purgatory is implied by scripture's encouragement to pray for the dead; why pray for those who are already in heave, there's nothing better that they could receive so no prayer can add to their bliss and why pray for those in hell since they are condemned already and no prayer can reverse God's final judgement. The encouragement to pray for the dead is given in this passage:
2 Maccabees 12:38-45 KJV

(38) So Judas gathered his host, and came into the city of Odollam, And when the seventh day came, they purified themselves, as the custom was, and kept the sabbath in the same place.
(39) And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves.
(40) Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain.
(41) All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid,
(42) Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain.
(43) And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:
(44) For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.
(45) And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.​

The implication here is that both the prayers offered for the dead and the sin offering that was offered for them was reconciling them to God after they died. That is precisely what purgatory and prayers for the dead and offering the mass for their benefit is about.

I don't consider any of the extra-biblical books in the Catholic Bible to be the divinely inspired, authoritative Word of God. So, to quote passages from any of them is moot, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[sonshine234]

Sola Scriptura is better explained in this article here: What is Sola Scriptura?. And it explains why it is so important.

To quote from the article:

Except there is no where in Scripture that says to use Scripture alone, No where in Scripture does it call itself authortative all those ideas are man made tradition. SS is something I consider materially heretical.

 

[yogosans14]

Except there is no where in Scripture that says to use Scripture alone, No where in Scripture does it call itself authortative all those ideas are man made tradition. SS is something I consider materially heretical.

I thought Anglicans where sola scriptures considering the fact that they are Protestant.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't consider any of the extra-biblical books in the Catholic Bible to be the divinely inspired, authoritative Word of God. So, to quote passages from any of them is moot, as far as I'm concerned.

No doubt it is moot for you but for me that book is inspired scripture and hence authoritative.

 

[sonshine234]

I thought Anglicans where sola scriptures considering the fact that they are Protestant.

I am not a Protestant, no. Most Anglicans are prima Scriptura as I understand it. In my tradition we are Prima Scriptura. I am of the CEC not the ECUSA

This definition is great for Prima Scriptura:

An analogy is made where the entirety of church life is compared to a jewelled pendant, of which the most precious gem is the large diamond in the center, representing scripture. The other gems represent other parts of the Holy Tradition. While none of the other jewels are equal to the diamond, they nonetheless contribute to its beauty; the diamond looks best as part of the whole pendant (i. e., when viewed within the context of Church tradition). Sola scriptura, which is analogous to ripping the diamond out of the pendant because one prefers to view it on its own, only detracts from the diamond's beauty and value

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/scripture/pendant.html

 

[yogosans14]

I am not a Protestant, no. Most Anglicans are prima Scriptura as I understand it. In my tradition we are Prima Scriptura. I am of the CEC not the ECUSA

This definition is great for Prima Scriptura:

The Bible and Holy Tradition

Oh. The Methodist Church is Prima Scriptura to. I don't have a problem with it. But Anglicans are Protestant.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

None of those verses say the Bible is the only authority on God. The idea that "the Bible is the only authority on God" is man made

We seem to be straying off of the topic of Purgatory here, so...perhaps we should take this discussion elsewhere.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

I don't consider any of the extra-biblical books in the Catholic Bible to be the divinely inspired, authoritative Word of God. So, to quote passages from any of them is moot, as far as I'm concerned.

No doubt it is moot for you but for me that book is inspired scripture and hence authoritative.

I need to ask for your forgiveness, because what I said to you in my previous post was unkind and unloving. I am sorry.

 

[Erose]

Derailed again, and this time I didn't participate in the derailment.