Purgatory!

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

The doctrine of purgatory is the same now as it was in the middle ages. Many superstitions have arisen around this doctrine but that doesn't change the doctrine.

Yes, the official doctrine remains the same.

The trouble I have is with the official doctrine- not the whole concept of purgatory, but the official relationship between the Thomsitic/Tridentine theology of justification, particularly as it relates to condign merit and penance, and the theological grounds for purgatory in Catholic doctrine.

 

[Erose]

Not really. There is next to none...and that's putting it charitably.

Obviously not true, and this has been displayed in one of my previous posts, which I will not regurgitate here; since from the comment quoted below you have no real desire to discuss.

By someone who doesn't understands it himself?

Praying for the dead has about as much to do with the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory as water does with popsicles. Now, to be fair, if you want to discuss praying for the dead (and you intend to advocate a conversion to Judaism to me), I'll be willing to participate.

How can you really come to that conclusion? For what reason then would prayer edify an individual who has moved on then? If they are in heaven, obviously our prayers are not needed as they are already in the Divine Presence. If they are in hell, then our prayers will not help them. So prayers can only effect those who are in some form of intermediate state between earth and heaven. And if they are in an intermediate state, then why would they be there if it didn't have nothing to do with sin or the temporal punishment due to sin?

You speak of me and others not understanding the doctrine, but this comment shows a much greater ignorance than theirs.

Or if you want to say that there is some evidence that there may be some sort of transitional state in the afterlife...but if you want us to believe that Purgatory itself, as taught by the RCC, has a scriptural foundation, well, that's just a non-starter it's so far-fetched. I'd recommend that you return to using Tradition as your basis, if you want to continue in that, because Scripture is going to leave you wanting.

I don't think so. Scripture does speak in 1 Corinthians definitely implies a purging fire: 10 With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. 11 The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. 12 But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, 13 and each man’s workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man’s workmanship. 14 He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; 15 if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire. And it speaks of the purging fire occurring in the day of the Lord.


But the key to this doctrine in Scripture like I said is the doctrines that this is built upon, which are temporal punishment due to sin, some sins leading not to death (venial sins), the requirement of purity before one can enter into the Divine Presence, and prayer for the dead. The first three are easily defended from even the limited Bible collection used by Protestants, while the last requires 2 Mac which is only found in the Bibles of the Apostolic churches. I have already provide the Scriptural basis for these in a previous post and will not do so again.

But the point being is that if there are sins that do not lead to death (venial sins) and that God's justice requires restitution for sins committed, including forgiven sins, and yet only those that are pure can enter the Divine Presence, there must be some intermediate state for the dead who do not meet the requirements for hell, but also do not immediately meet the requirements to enter God's Presence. Thus some form of purging is required.

 

[Erose]

I just like that there's an actual textual discussion about Jesus' sayings and disputes about sins forgiven or not post mortum (and I like your most recent response about the variety of afterlife speculation, since that was absolutely an important feature of Second Temple Judaism)

For my part, I'm probably much more sympathetic to some idea of post mortum purging of sin and the rectification of the soul than most Lutherans or Protestants, although it looks nothing like the developed Catholic idea of purgatory as it is connected to the sacrament of reconciliation and the Thomistic/Tridentine theology of meritum de condigno.

I believe, like Aquinas and Bonaventura and Luther and Melanchthon, that the soul is twisted because of a habitus of sin derived from the flesh and that when the flesh is put off, the source of that sinful habitus is left on this earth; but does the soul then automatically "untwist" when "liberated" from the flesh like a rubber band snapping back into place, or that it needs to be untwisted over some period of "time"? Add that question to the question of whether there is a intermediate state between death and resurrection at all, and it seems to me that the best argument against soul sleep relies on an argument for some sort of purging period for the soul between death and resurrection. In that sense there is no difference between heaven and purgatory; there's just a single worshiping community of saints moving forward on the path toward final salvation, just like here on earth, except there is no longer any backsliding because there are no longer any fleshly impulses.

But like Luther my ideas aren't well thought out (the above is the true extent of it) and I don't think they're all that important either way. As far as I'm concerned, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is only a problem inasmuch as it is connected to the Catholic doctrines of penance and condign merit. And on that question- the question of justification- I think you and I are firmly agreed.

And that is a big issue to me.

Catholics are fond of arguing that if it bears ANY resemblance whatsoever to Purgatory...then it's Purgatory--the Purgatory that the RCC created in the Middle Ages and taught until our own lifetimes.

As the expression goes, 'close' counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, but that's all. No educated person should say that X has a few of the characteristics of Y, so they are the same thing.

Just so that we are clear on what we are debating, please provide your understanding of what you think the Catholic Church teaches concerning the doctrine of Purgatory. Some of the comments expressed make this a necessary question to answer before we can move forward.

It should be noted that during the Middle Ages, there were a good number of 'myths' and 'theological opinions' that arose; and I am getting the impression that some of these could be the issue one is questioning here.

 

[Erose]

Yes, the official doctrine remains the same.

The trouble I have is with the official doctrine- not the whole concept of purgatory, but the official relationship between the Thomsitic/Tridentine theology of justification, particularly as it relates to condign merit and penance, and the theological grounds for purgatory in Catholic doctrine.

Can you provide a more detailed explanation of your issues with this doctrine?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Yes, the official doctrine remains the same.

The trouble I have is with the official doctrine- not the whole concept of purgatory, but the official relationship between the Thomsitic/Tridentine theology of justification, particularly as it relates to condign merit and penance, and the theological grounds for purgatory in Catholic doctrine.

The theology of justification should not come into play with regard to purgatory because purgatory is only for those already justified.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Can you provide a more detailed explanation of your issues with this doctrine?

I don't believe that justification is a process furthered through the performance grace-infused works of believers which merit increases in righteousness, whether those works are works of penance or simply good works done in the course of life. I believe justification is the legal imputation of a righteous status given to the believer by a free act of God's favor alone and received through faith alone, in accord with Article IV of the Augsburg Confession and its defense in the Apology.

 

[Erose]

I don't believe that justification is a process furthered through the performance grace-infused works of believers which merit increases in righteousness, whether those works are works of penance or simply good works done in the course of life. I believe justification is the legal imputation of a righteous status given to the believer by a free act of God's favor alone and received through faith alone, in accord with Article IV of the Augsburg Confession and its defense in the Apology.

Am I correct in saying that Lutherans differentiate in that justification refers to the initial salvation of the Christian, and that sanctification covers the ongoing process afterwards of making oneself Christ-like through the grace of the Holy Spirit?

 

[South Bound]

You need to rephrase that South Bound. You don't come here accusing anyone of not being a Christian. I am a Christian through my Baptism, and through my love of my Lord and Savior. You need to go back and correct this comment, and try to avoid doing this again here. If not you will pretty soon get kicked off this site.

Which part did you disagree with? The part where I said that Protestants and Catholics are not united? Or the part where I said that you've repeatedly said that Purgatory purifies?

I can show you evidence for each, if you like.

 

[Erose]

Which part did you disagree with? The part where I said that Protestants and Catholics are not united? Or the part where I said that you've repeatedly said that Purgatory purifies?

No the part where you implied that Catholics and Christians are something different. Catholics ARE Christians.

I can show you evidence for each, if you like.

No, I believe your and my discussion is at an end, for it has ceased to be in charity.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Am I correct in saying that Lutherans differentiate in that justification refers to the initial salvation of the Christian, and that sanctification covers the ongoing process afterwards of making oneself Christ-like through the grace of the Holy Spirit?

Yes, pretty much. Importantly, though, because we believe that justification, as a process, is totally complete the moment it begins, that means that in at least one sense sanctification is always a return to the fullness of our identity as Christ-like rather than a striving toward something not yet there.

 

[South Bound]

No the part where you implied that Catholics and Christians are something different. Catholics ARE Christians.

First of all, I never said Catholics weren't Christians.

Second, even Catholics, while believing themselves to be Christians, will differentiate themselves by stating that they are Catholics, rather than Christians.

When asking a Catholic if they're born again, I've literally had Catholics tell me, "No, I'm Catholic". Did they mean they weren't Christians? I doubt it. It just means they identify themselves differently.

I'll be happy to cite some Catholic documents that state that we're not Christians, if it will help you get over your victimhood.

No, I believe your and my discussion is at an end, for it has ceased to be in charity.

Glad you recognize this.

 

[Erose]

Yes, pretty much. Importantly, though, because we believe that justification, as a process, is totally complete the moment it begins, that means that in at least one sense sanctification is always a return to the fullness of our identity as Christ-like rather than a striving toward something not yet there.

I think the major difference is that we use the words justification and sanctification interchangeably and not as something different.

We believe that once one is Baptized he is justified. As long as he remains in the state of Sanctifying Grace he remains justified. If he falls into mortal sin, he is no longer justified and is required to repent and confess his sins to regain his justified state. As long as one dies in this justified state or what is called Sanctified Grace then he will end up in heaven. I think that the difference (and correct me if I am wrong) is the difficulty that one can loose this justification.

The discussion of meritorious works on the other hand falls under the title of what you call Sanctification. And quite frankly do not necessarily effect the final location of the should, but rather effects the closeness one is to the Divine Presence, which is considered to be qualitative. For example the Blessed Mother is closer to God than you or I will ever be, even though we will be fully happy in heaven and live in His Presence. It is kinda like a group of people standing around a fire. Those closer to the fire have more heat than those further away.

 

[Albion]

The doctrine of purgatory is the same now as it was in the middle ages.

That's what I've been saying!

But there are plenty of people who are determined to recast it into anything but a place where punishment for sins occurs. You know--the idea that it's an inoffensive post-death lecture or a celestial showerbath.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So what's the dogmatic teaching on purgatory, Albion? Or are you writing about what's commonly taught by people but not a part of Catholic dogma?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So what's the dogmatic teaching on purgatory, Albion? Or are you writing about what's commonly taught by people but not a part of Catholic dogma?

Why don't you just post it? I don't ask non-Lutherans to go digging around the Book of Concord.

 

[Albion]

Why don't you just post it? I don't ask non-Lutherans to go digging around the Book of Concord.

Yes, but GCC...

I was a Catholic longer than MC has been one...and well educated in Catholic theology. In short, I don't speak on these matters merely because I've heard something or other through the grapevine (which is usually what you and I get in return when people start lecturing us on the failures or wrongs of the Protestant Reformation). What's more, other Catholics have disagreed with him on this.

That's the long way around to saying that I think your point is entirely appropriate. If someone has some information to give...GIVE IT. The tactic of posting teasing questions designed, so the authors think, to put the other fellow on the spot is much overdone.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why don't you just post it? I don't ask non-Lutherans to go digging around the Book of Concord.

I did, at post #322

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, but GCC...

I was a Catholic longer than MC has been one...

How would you know that?

Did you read post #322?

 

[concretecamper]

Yes, but GCC...

I was a Catholic longer than MC has been one...and well educated in Catholic theology. In short, I don't speak on these matters merely because I've heard something or other through the grapevine (which is usually what you and I get in return when people start lecturing us on the failures or wrongs of the Protestant Reformation). What's more, other Catholics have disagreed with him on this.

That's the long way around to saying that I think your point is entirely appropriate. If someone has some information to give...GIVE IT. The tactic of posting teasing questions designed, so the authors think, to put the other fellow on the spot is much overdone.

I for one have corrected many errors your have posted about Catholic teaching. Number of years do not mean a thing.... particularly post Vatican II years.

 

[BobRyan]

The council of Trent decrees the following concerning Purgatory:

DECREE CONCERNING PURGATORY.

Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory,
​

.

I think that pretty much sums up the claim for the source for Purgatory.

in Christ,

Bob