• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,268
✟584,052.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Catholicism has always held that to be true
So all that talk we hear from other Catholics about "Sacred Tradition" is some blather or folklore that they picked up somewhere or other, and it's not actually part of Catholic theology?
 
Upvote 0
C

catholichomeschooler

Guest
So all that talk we hear from other Catholics about "Sacred Tradition" is some blather or folklore that they picked up somewhere or other, and it's not actually part of Catholic theology?

You just are not familiar with Catholic doctrine. You can read it all in the Catechism for free here:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,268
✟584,052.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
C

catholichomeschooler

Guest
Don't think you can throw the catechism at us and call it done. If you want to cite something that shows that Sacred Tradition is NOT part of Catholic theology, point to it. Thanks.

Of course Sacred Tradition is part of Catholic theology. That doesn't make it doctrine in every case, however.

Do you know what sacred tradition is?
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟263,621.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
after death and before heaven, Catholics believe that Jesus finishes the work of sanctification that He started in us

we have temptations and bad habits on earth
in heaven we do not think we will suffer from temptations

we call the process where Christ finishes this sanctification after death but before heaven, Purgatory
 
Upvote 0

South Bound

I stand with Israel.
Jan 3, 2014
4,443
1,034
✟53,659.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You just are not familiar with Catholic doctrine. You can read it all in the Catechism for free here:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Given the number of Catholics here who didn't know 1475 says that the purpose of Purgatory is for the sinner to expiate his own sins, maybe you should clean your own house first.

I love that you accuse somebody of not knowing Catholic doctrine, when I've been having to explain Catholic doctrine to Catholics for about twenty pages now.
 
Upvote 0

South Bound

I stand with Israel.
Jan 3, 2014
4,443
1,034
✟53,659.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
after death and before heaven, Catholics believe that Jesus finishes the work of sanctification that He started in us

we have temptations and bad habits on earth
in heaven we do not think we will suffer from temptations

we call the process where Christ finishes this sanctification after death but before heaven, Purgatory

And we believe the Bible's teaching that it's called glorification.
 
Upvote 0
C

catholichomeschooler

Guest
Given the number of Catholics here who didn't know 1475 says that the purpose of Purgatory is for the sinner to expiate his own sins, maybe you should clean your own house first.

I love that you accuse somebody of not knowing Catholic doctrine, when I've been having to explain Catholic doctrine to Catholics for about twenty pages now.


expiate: make amends or reparation for


FYI:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,268
✟584,052.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Of course Sacred Tradition is part of Catholic theology. That doesn't make it doctrine in every case

The problem here is that you horned in on fhansen's ideas, and I should not have entertained that since it leaves us with two different POVs coming from two different Catholic posters. The comment that I think kicked off this particular discussion was the following:

fhansen said:
Scripture was never intended to be a sort of point by point run-down on or presentation of Christian theology, while it is nonetheless recognized as being materially sufficient in regards to containing all relevant doctrine.
If that view is correct, the Reformed POV is affirmed. If yours is correct, it is rejected.
 
Upvote 0
C

catholichomeschooler

Guest
The problem here is that you horned in on fhansen's ideas, and I should not have entertained that since it leaves us with two different POVs coming from two different Catholic posters. The comment that I think kicked off this particular discussion was the following:


If that view is correct, the Reformed POV is affirmed. If yours is correct, it is rejected.

That makes no sense to me.

The reformers started splitting into factions almost immediately and now we have thousands of Christian denominations teaching multiple contradictory doctrines while claiming the believe the bible is the Word of God.
 
Upvote 0

South Bound

I stand with Israel.
Jan 3, 2014
4,443
1,034
✟53,659.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Semantics.

No, Darlin'. "Semantics" is calling the same thing by two different names and then quibbling about minor differences. Sanctification and glorification are two different things.

expiate: make amends or reparation for


FYI:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

Correct. And your fellow Catholics did not know that paragraph 1475 said that the purpose of Purgatory is for the sinner to expiate his own sins.

I can't speak for what my fellow Catholic do or don't know, and I don't think you can either.

Actually, I can because I'm the one who had to correct them and show them from their own sources what their own religion teaches.
 
Upvote 0
C

catholichomeschooler

Guest
No, Darlin'. "Semantics" is calling the same thing by two different names. Sanctification and glorification are two different things.



Correct. And your fellow Catholics did not know that paragraph 1475 said that the purpose of Purgatory is for the sinner to expiate his own sins.


I can't speak for what my fellow Catholic do or don't know, and I don't think you can either.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,268
✟584,052.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
That makes no sense to me.

Two conflicting claims have been made by Catholics here in recent posts about the matter of the authority of the Bible. Just read back through the previous posts if you need to catch up.

The reformers started splitting into factions almost immediately and now we have thousands of Christian denominations teaching multiple contradictory doctrines while claiming the believe the bible is the Word of God.

In other words, it is standard Protestant belief that the Bible is the ultimate guide to doctrine. That's correct.
 
Upvote 0

South Bound

I stand with Israel.
Jan 3, 2014
4,443
1,034
✟53,659.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Catholichomeschooler said:
The reformers started splitting into factions almost immediately and now we have thousands of Christian denominations teaching multiple contradictory doctrines while claiming the believe the bible is the Word of God.

This lie has been debunked so many times I can't believe Catholics are still telling it. I guess lying isn't a sin in Catholicism.

Usually, I just point out that the methodology that was used to arrive at that ever changing number (just like the size of the fish you caught last weekend grows every time you tell the story, so the alleged number of denominations keeps changing every time Catholics make the claim) was terribly flawed.

For instance, in calculating the number, they counted non-Christian groups, such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, as "Christian denominations". Funny that the 33,000 denominations lie is usually trotted out to refute the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura but then, as their evidence, they cite non-Christian religions that don't even believe the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura.

Then, I point out that they count para-church organizations that aren't denominations at all and bodies or committes, such as the NAMB, within a denomination as separate and distinct denominations unto themselves.

And I go on to point out a few other inconsistencies and errors.

But I'm just tired of repeating myself and dealing with this nonsense, so I think I'll let James White take it from here:

The First Error: Simple Logic

Before looking at the source of this argument and the problems associated with it, it should be made clear that the entire argument being presented here can only be identified as “bogus.” It fails scrutiny at every possible level. The leaps in logic and argumentation are vast. Let’s just focus upon two of the obvious problems.

First, how does the Roman Catholic apologist go about demonstrating that sola scriptura is the source of these divisions, specifically? For example, when we see division in the ranks of Rome, and see strong disagreements on key issues, does it follow that the Roman magisterium is to blame for the differences of viewpoint? If a Christian believes the Scriptures a sufficient rule of faith, how does it follow that an abuse of such a sufficient source is an argument against its sufficiency? Such simply does not follow. The Scriptures can be perfectly suited to their purpose, but men are still sinners. Men are still imperfect. Men are still ignorant. And, most importantly, men still have their traditions. So while these apologists pretend it is a “given” that sola scriptura is to blame for these divisions, that assumption is insufficient to prove the argument.

Second, and related thereto, is the painfully obvious observation that only a small percentage of “Protestant” churches today self-consciously even seek to profess, let alone confess and practice, sola scriptura. In fact, a large number of non-Catholic churches embrace all sorts of concepts that violate sola scriptura, so how can the principle be blamed for the actions of those who do not even believe in it?Obviously, it can’t be. In reality, those churches that specifically seek to profess, confess, and apply sola scripturaare significantly more united in their theology than those churches that look to some external, inspired/guided source of either interpretation or revelation.

So, while the “33,000 Protestant churches and it is all sola scriptura’s fault argument is common, that doesn’t make it at all valid. But there’s an even more basic reason to reject this argument so often used by the likes of Tim Staples and Steve Ray.

The Second Error: It’s Just a Lie

Whenever you find a convert to another religion citing a source, here’s a word of advice. Read the source yourself. And when we do that with the World Christian Encyclopedia, we discover that almost anything said by Steve Ray or Tim Staples or others in their circles should be taken with a grain of salt–always. On page 10, the source cited by Ray, we read,

"GLOBAL CHRISTIANITY had 26,350 33,820 denominations/paradenominations with 1,391,020 3,445,000 congregations/churches composed of 1,130 1,888 million affiliated Christians dichotomized into the 2 global categories below..."

The first number is from 1970, the second from 2000. The two “global categorizations” offered are “denominationalism” and “postdenominationalism.” It is vital to realize that the 33,820 number, used by Ray and Staples and the other RC apologists, combines all the “denominations” included in bothlists. But if these men would just do a small amount of reading on the very page they cite, they would realize that this is not a listing of “denominations” arising from the Protestant Reformation (though, again, for clarity I note, this is exactly the claim of Steve Rayas documented above). 21,990 of these denominations are in the “postdenominationalism” category, 11,830 in the denominational. And please realize, the denominational number includes Roman Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants! In fact, amazingly, this source lists 242 Roman Catholic denominations! If these ever-so-careful researchers had bothered to read on to page 16, they would have discovered:

•This source lists 781 “Orthodox” denominations (i.e., Eastern Orthodoxy), predicting 887 for 2025.

•This source lists 242 “Roman Catholic” denominations for 2000, predicting 245 for 2025.

Do either of these groups arise from the Reformation? Of course not! Instead, continuing on page 16, the over-arching group “Protestant” is listed as having 8,973 denominations in 2000, predicting 9490 by 2025. If we stop just here, this means Steve Ray and Tim Staples are off by 24,000 denominations in their oft-repeated claims, i.e., the actual number in the source is only 27% of the number they give. They are inflating the number by more than 300%! Why? Are they simply going on second-hand references without ever even looking at the sources? Or are they being dishonest? Which is it?

But this isn’t the entire picture. As you begin to work through the list of “Protestant” denominations, you discover that they include non-Trinitarian groups such as the Oneness denominations, as well as other groups like the Seventh-Day Adventists! Some of the other denominations listed openly embrace “revelation” in the modern period, hence meaning that they would hardly hold to any meaningful doctrine of sola scriptura to begin with.

After the Protestant groups you have “Independent” groups, followed by “Marginal Christian” groups. But all of these are added into the 33,820 number! Please realize, this includes “Gnostics” (!), Mormons (122 denominations worth!) and Jehovah’s Witnesses (228 denominations)!

So the serious-minded reader is left with one conclusion: Steve Ray, Tim Staples, and the rest of the Roman Catholic apologetics community that throws the 33,000 number around like a football are embarrassing themselves to no end every time they repeat this myth. Not only is it painfully obvious that sola scriptura is not to blame for this 33,000 number, but in this source, read in its own context, the large portion of those listed in the 33,000 number do not even confess the doctrine, let alone practice it in their theological enunciations and development! Even amongst the Protestant groups listed, how many seriously know the issues surrounding the doctrine, let alone make a conscious effort to apply the truth? So no honest person could possibly, in light of this information, continue to make use of this number the way Ray and Staples and others do with regularity.

Ironically, on the page after that cited by Ray (p. 11), we find a chart relating to martyrs during the history of Christendom. It claims 11,000,000 martyrs have died as Roman Catholics since AD 1000 (are they including the Crusades?–we are not told). It likewise lists 3,170,000 Protestant martyrs, and 838,000 “Catholics prior to AD 1000.”

But, in the next section it lists who was responsible for killing these martyrs. Secular governments and atheists score big, with 55,597,000 and 31,519,000 respectively. The Muslims are high-performers on the martyr-production scale as well with 9,101,000 to their credit. Animists come in fourth with 7,469,000, and guess who is #5 on the martyr-producing hit parade? Yes, Roman Catholicism, with 4,951,000! I wonder if Ray and Staples will be quoting that statistic anytime soon? And if not, why not?

Conclusion

In light of these facts, I would like to call upon Steve Ray, Tim Staples, and all other Roman Catholic apologists who have taught, by spoken word or in written form, that there are 33,000 Protestant denominations, to openly and publicly retract their errant assertion, apologize, and explain how it is that they could actually provide a citation to a source that, upon examination, actually refutes their application in its entirety. Did they just not understand what they were reading? Did they actually even look at the source?

Were they just offering the citation as taken from someone else? What is the explanation? Inquiring minds want to know.

The 33,000 Denominations Myth | Alpha and Omega Ministries
 
Upvote 0

South Bound

I stand with Israel.
Jan 3, 2014
4,443
1,034
✟53,659.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Catholichomeschooler said:
The reformers started splitting into factions almost immediately and now we have thousands of Christian denominations teaching multiple contradictory doctrines while claiming the believe the bible is the Word of God.

This lie has been debunked so many times I can't believe Catholics are still telling it. I guess lying isn't a sin in Catholicism.

Usually, I just point out that the methodology that was used to arrive at that ever changing number (just like the size of the fish you caught last weekend grows every time you tell the story, so the alleged number of denominations keeps changing every time Catholics make the claim) was terribly flawed.

For instance, in calculating the number, they counted non-Christian groups, such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, as "Christian denominations". Funny that the 33,000 denominations lie is usually trotted out to refute the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura but then, as their evidence, they cite non-Christian religions that don't even believe the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura.

Then, I point out that they count para-church organizations that aren't denominations at all and bodies or committes, such as the NAMB, within a denomination as separate and distinct denominations unto themselves.

And I go on to point out a few other inconsistencies and errors.

But I'm just tired of repeating myself and dealing with this nonsense, so I think I'll let James White take it from here:

The First Error: Simple Logic

Before looking at the source of this argument and the problems associated with it, it should be made clear that the entire argument being presented here can only be identified as “bogus.” It fails scrutiny at every possible level. The leaps in logic and argumentation are vast. Let’s just focus upon two of the obvious problems.

First, how does the Roman Catholic apologist go about demonstrating that sola scriptura is the source of these divisions, specifically? For example, when we see division in the ranks of Rome, and see strong disagreements on key issues, does it follow that the Roman magisterium is to blame for the differences of viewpoint? If a Christian believes the Scriptures a sufficient rule of faith, how does it follow that an abuse of such a sufficient source is an argument against its sufficiency? Such simply does not follow. The Scriptures can be perfectly suited to their purpose, but men are still sinners. Men are still imperfect. Men are still ignorant. And, most importantly, men still have their traditions. So while these apologists pretend it is a “given” that sola scriptura is to blame for these divisions, that assumption is insufficient to prove the argument.

Second, and related thereto, is the painfully obvious observation that only a small percentage of “Protestant” churches today self-consciously even seek to profess, let alone confess and practice, sola scriptura. In fact, a large number of non-Catholic churches embrace all sorts of concepts that violate sola scriptura, so how can the principle be blamed for the actions of those who do not even believe in it?Obviously, it can’t be. In reality, those churches that specifically seek to profess, confess, and apply sola scripturaare significantly more united in their theology than those churches that look to some external, inspired/guided source of either interpretation or revelation.

So, while the “33,000 Protestant churches and it is all sola scriptura’s fault argument is common, that doesn’t make it at all valid. But there’s an even more basic reason to reject this argument so often used by the likes of Tim Staples and Steve Ray.

The Second Error: It’s Just a Lie

Whenever you find a convert to another religion citing a source, here’s a word of advice. Read the source yourself. And when we do that with the World Christian Encyclopedia, we discover that almost anything said by Steve Ray or Tim Staples or others in their circles should be taken with a grain of salt–always. On page 10, the source cited by Ray, we read,

"GLOBAL CHRISTIANITY had 26,350 33,820 denominations/paradenominations with 1,391,020 3,445,000 congregations/churches composed of 1,130 1,888 million affiliated Christians dichotomized into the 2 global categories below..."

The first number is from 1970, the second from 2000. The two “global categorizations” offered are “denominationalism” and “postdenominationalism.” It is vital to realize that the 33,820 number, used by Ray and Staples and the other RC apologists, combines all the “denominations” included in bothlists. But if these men would just do a small amount of reading on the very page they cite, they would realize that this is not a listing of “denominations” arising from the Protestant Reformation (though, again, for clarity I note, this is exactly the claim of Steve Rayas documented above). 21,990 of these denominations are in the “postdenominationalism” category, 11,830 in the denominational. And please realize, the denominational number includes Roman Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants! In fact, amazingly, this source lists 242 Roman Catholic denominations! If these ever-so-careful researchers had bothered to read on to page 16, they would have discovered:

•This source lists 781 “Orthodox” denominations (i.e., Eastern Orthodoxy), predicting 887 for 2025.

•This source lists 242 “Roman Catholic” denominations for 2000, predicting 245 for 2025.

Do either of these groups arise from the Reformation? Of course not! Instead, continuing on page 16, the over-arching group “Protestant” is listed as having 8,973 denominations in 2000, predicting 9490 by 2025. If we stop just here, this means Steve Ray and Tim Staples are off by 24,000 denominations in their oft-repeated claims, i.e., the actual number in the source is only 27% of the number they give. They are inflating the number by more than 300%! Why? Are they simply going on second-hand references without ever even looking at the sources? Or are they being dishonest? Which is it?

But this isn’t the entire picture. As you begin to work through the list of “Protestant” denominations, you discover that they include non-Trinitarian groups such as the Oneness denominations, as well as other groups like the Seventh-Day Adventists! Some of the other denominations listed openly embrace “revelation” in the modern period, hence meaning that they would hardly hold to any meaningful doctrine of sola scriptura to begin with.

After the Protestant groups you have “Independent” groups, followed by “Marginal Christian” groups. But all of these are added into the 33,820 number! Please realize, this includes “Gnostics” (!), Mormons (122 denominations worth!) and Jehovah’s Witnesses (228 denominations)!

So the serious-minded reader is left with one conclusion: Steve Ray, Tim Staples, and the rest of the Roman Catholic apologetics community that throws the 33,000 number around like a football are embarrassing themselves to no end every time they repeat this myth. Not only is it painfully obvious that sola scriptura is not to blame for this 33,000 number, but in this source, read in its own context, the large portion of those listed in the 33,000 number do not even confess the doctrine, let alone practice it in their theological enunciations and development! Even amongst the Protestant groups listed, how many seriously know the issues surrounding the doctrine, let alone make a conscious effort to apply the truth? So no honest person could possibly, in light of this information, continue to make use of this number the way Ray and Staples and others do with regularity.

Ironically, on the page after that cited by Ray (p. 11), we find a chart relating to martyrs during the history of Christendom. It claims 11,000,000 martyrs have died as Roman Catholics since AD 1000 (are they including the Crusades?–we are not told). It likewise lists 3,170,000 Protestant martyrs, and 838,000 “Catholics prior to AD 1000.”

But, in the next section it lists who was responsible for killing these martyrs. Secular governments and atheists score big, with 55,597,000 and 31,519,000 respectively. The Muslims are high-performers on the martyr-production scale as well with 9,101,000 to their credit. Animists come in fourth with 7,469,000, and guess who is #5 on the martyr-producing hit parade? Yes, Roman Catholicism, with 4,951,000! I wonder if Ray and Staples will be quoting that statistic anytime soon? And if not, why not?

Conclusion

In light of these facts, I would like to call upon Steve Ray, Tim Staples, and all other Roman Catholic apologists who have taught, by spoken word or in written form, that there are 33,000 Protestant denominations, to openly and publicly retract their errant assertion, apologize, and explain how it is that they could actually provide a citation to a source that, upon examination, actually refutes their application in its entirety. Did they just not understand what they were reading? Did they actually even look at the source?

Were they just offering the citation as taken from someone else? What is the explanation? Inquiring minds want to know.

The 33,000 Denominations Myth | Alpha and Omega Ministries
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,268
✟584,052.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The reformers started splitting into factions almost immediately and now we have thousands of Christian denominations teaching multiple contradictory doctrines while claiming the believe the bible is the Word of God.

The "little secret" that Catholics who like to use this talking point never address is the undeniable fact that every one of the Catholic churches claims to be guided by "Sacred Tradition" and yet EACH and EVERY one of them has a different version of "Sacred Tradition." Meanwhile, almost every Protestant church agrees to Sola Scriptura.
 
Upvote 0
C

catholichomeschooler

Guest
Two conflicting claims have been made by Catholics here in recent posts about the matter of the authority of the Bible. Just read back through the previous posts if you need to catch up.



In other words, it is standard Protestant belief that the Bible is the ultimate guide to doctrine. That's correct.

And yet it creates multiple contradictory doctrines.

Is that what Jesus meant by the Holy Spirit leading the Church into all truth?
 
Upvote 0
C

catholichomeschooler

Guest
The "little secret" that Catholics who like to use this talking point never address is the undeniable fact that every one of the Catholic churches claims to be guided by "Sacred Tradition" and yet EACH and EVERY one of them has a different version of "Sacred Tradition." Meanwhile, almost every Protestant church agrees to Sola Scriptura.

This is false.

There is a single authority for Catholic doctrine. If you want to know what a specific doctrine is you can look it up.
 
Upvote 0

South Bound

I stand with Israel.
Jan 3, 2014
4,443
1,034
✟53,659.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is false.

There is a single authority for Catholic doctrine. If you want to know what a specific doctrine is you can look it up.

Then why does the same source you cite for your claim that there are 33,000 denominations say that there are 242 divisions within Catholicism?
 
Upvote 0