Purgatory!

[PhillipLaSpino]

Let's discuss the following like adults who are searching for the truth!

Purgatory comes from the Latin, purgo, meaning, "I cleanse." The Catholic Church agrees that it is a place of suffering, but are divided on how those in purgatory suffer. Some say fire, others say, tribulation.

Those who teach purgatory say, "That some die in grace and in the friendship or God, but burdened with venial sins and imperfections, or before they have done suitable penance for their sins. They teach that the souls of these are cleansed in purgatory of these last hindrances to their entry into the vision of God.

Their communion with the faithful on earth is not broken. The living can bring comfort and alleviation to those in purgatory by their intercessions, by Masses, prayers, almsgiving, and other pious works which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to do for others of the faithful. They admit that the word purgatory in not a Biblical, and that this doctrine is not taught in Scripture." This from the words found in the Catholic Catechism.

The doctrine is founded on several verses, one being 2 Mac.12:43-44-45. I will not bring these verses into the discussion because Maccabees has no evidence of being Divinely inspiration.

Matt.12:31-32-33, Jesus said, "I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

1 Cor.3:15, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (meaning purgatory.)"

1 Pet.3:19, "By which also He (Jesus) preached unto the spirits in prison (meaning purgatory.)"

This is a teaching of the Catholic Church; Restorationist and Mormons who deny that death brings the final judgment. They maintain that millions of people will have an opportunity for salvation after they die. The Jehovah Witnesses believe men do not have a soul or spirit, and upon his death, the body goes back to dust. But, on the last day, God will create them again out of nothingness.

Each denomination has its own little twist, but the following will give us a rough idea of the thinking behind it. It is believed that God created only to bless. Christ's kingdom is moral in nature, and extends to moral beings in every state or mode of existence: that the probation of man is not confined to the present life, but extends through the mediational reign; and that as Christ died for all. Therefore before He delivers up the kingdom to the Father, all men shall be brought to a knowledge and truth, thus breaking the bondage of sin and death.

Your thoughts;

Phil LaSpino

 

[Giver]

Let's discuss the following like adults who are searching for the truth!

Purgatory comes from the Latin, purgo, meaning, "I cleanse." The Catholic Church agrees that it is a place of suffering, but are divided on how those in purgatory suffer. Some say fire, others say, tribulation.

Those who teach purgatory say, "That some die in grace and in the friendship or God, but burdened with venial sins and imperfections, or before they have done suitable penance for their sins. They teach that the souls of these are cleansed in purgatory of these last hindrances to their entry into the vision of God.

Their communion with the faithful on earth is not broken. The living can bring comfort and alleviation to those in purgatory by their intercessions, by Masses, prayers, almsgiving, and other pious works which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to do for others of the faithful. They admit that the word purgatory in not a Biblical, and that this doctrine is not taught in Scripture." This from the words found in the Catholic Catechism.

The doctrine is founded on several verses, one being 2 Mac.12:43-44-45. I will not bring these verses into the discussion because Maccabees has no evidence of being Divinely inspiration.

Matt.12:31-32-33, Jesus said, "I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

1 Cor.3:15, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (meaning purgatory.)"

1 Pet.3:19, "By which also He (Jesus) preached unto the spirits in prison (meaning purgatory.)"

This is a teaching of the Catholic Church; Restorationist and Mormons who deny that death brings the final judgment. They maintain that millions of people will have an opportunity for salvation after they die. The Jehovah Witnesses believe men do not have a soul or spirit, and upon his death, the body goes back to dust. But, on the last day, God will create them again out of nothingness.

Each denomination has its own little twist, but the following will give us a rough idea of the thinking behind it. It is believed that God created only to bless. Christ's kingdom is moral in nature, and extends to moral beings in every state or mode of existence: that the probation of man is not confined to the present life, but extends through the mediational reign; and that as Christ died for all. Therefore before He delivers up the kingdom to the Father, all men shall be brought to a knowledge and truth, thus breaking the bondage of sin and death.

Your thoughts;

Phil LaSpino

There is a place for those who have believed in Jesus, but did not live his Word, other then Hell. Such people will not go to Hell, because Jesus said those people would be saved.

Paul said a sinner would never enter the kingdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

Jesus told us that one had to live the will of the Father to get into Heaven. Sinning is not living the Father’s will.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven___________”


What can one be saved from, but Hell? People who do not live God’s Word will not enter the kingdom of Heaven, so there has to be another place.

I believe this other place is where those who did not live God’s Word will be forever.

I also believe that those who will not enter Heaven, nor go to Hell will be punished justly for their sins forever.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. --------“

Notice Hebrews does not say Hell.

 

[mickey30981]

Fairly good summation. A couple comments though. First you write:

"Restorationist and Mormons who deny that death brings the final judgment. They maintain that millions of people will have an opportunity for salvation after they die. The Jehovah Witnesses believe men do not have a soul or spirit, and upon his death, the body goes back to dust. But, on the last day, God will create them again out of nothingness.questions. "

It looks like the statement "They maintain that millions of people will have an opportunity for salvation after they die" refers to Mormons and Restorations only. I just want to clarify that it is NOT Catholic teaching. One is judged at death in Catholicism. Purgation is ONLY necessary if you have been rewarded heaven.
There is no judgement after Purgatory; the soul continues on to the full beatific vision of God in heaven after Purgatory.

Secondly, to me it just doesnt ring true to suggest that there is NO evidence of the Divine inspiration of Maccabees. Maccabees was included in the Septuagint and considered canon by the Christ -era Jews, including Jesus. It was only deemed deuterocanonical 1500 years after Christ. Jerome did argue against including some of the Greek Septuagint Old Testament, as fully canonical, considering some of these books deuterocanonical, but the Church Fathers concluded he was simply wrong. Futhermore Protestants disagree about his interpretation on a number of particular passages of his Vulgate, such as the "Plena Gratia". So, to argue that Jerome must have been right regarding the Septuagint but wrong on the passages you disagree with is a little incongruent. So, to say that there is NO evidence of the Divine inspiration of Maccabees seems to stretch credibility, and rather appears as an expedient way to dissolve serious discussion about Purgatory that you say you desire. Since the historical weight lies with Christianity including Maccabees for 1500 years and also holding to the teaching of Purgatory for that time as well, it seems that the onus is on Protestantism (Orthodoxy as well?) to first argue away Maccabbees without simply dismissing it outright as you have. I think the richer discussion would be to include discussion on Maccabees. It is not an impenetrable fortress to overcome in any event. Just my point of view. Otherwise, thanks for a great topic!

 

[PaladinValer]

Since the OP's post is inaccurate on what Vatican Catholics even believe about Purgatory, the entire post is null, void, and forfeit.

 

[mickey30981]

There is a place for those who have believed in Jesus, but did not live his Word, other then Hell. Such people will not go to Hell, because Jesus said those people would be saved.

Paul said a sinner would never enter the kingdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

Jesus told us that one had to live the will of the Father to get into Heaven. Sinning is not living the Father’s will.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven___________”


What can one be saved from, but Hell? People who do not live God’s Word will not enter the kingdom of Heaven, so there has to be another place.

I believe this other place is where those who did not live God’s Word will be forever.

I also believe that those who will not enter Heaven, nor go to Hell will be punished justly for their sins forever.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. --------“

Notice Hebrews does not say Hell.

You do not quite understand Purgatory. You are arguing against a incorrect definition. Your argument suggests that only those with sins "unto death" will reach hell. That is true in Catholicism as well. In other words, that sinful behavior that is NOT of a believer will not lead one to Purgatory either. That person is doomed to hell as you point out. I dont think you are suggesting only the "sinless", those without ANY sin will fail to see heaven. So you must be suggesting those who lived in a sinful lifestyle cannot enter Purgatory or heaven. That is correct.

Purgatory is for those sins which are inadvertent , which do not represent a lifestyle , which are those imperfections of our fallen nature which all born again Christians carry with them. Christians are NOT perfect, and we reject a living a sinful life, YET we still fall and seek forgiveness. Its that part of our nature that is still imperfect, not completely free of all sin for which Purgatory applies. The bible says no one not holy will enter heaven. Catholic teaching interprets that literally , and not as Martin Luther interpreted it to mean, which is simply being covered of our dung. Purgatory makes us truly holy, completely sanctified, as the bible requires us to be for heaven.

 

[mickey30981]

One last point. Yes, I overlooked one other thing. It is not accurate that the Church concedes that Purgatory is NOT scriptural. That is NOT true. The Catechism may state that the word "Purgatory" is not be in the bible, but that does NOT mean the concept , the reality, is not scriptural. The word "Trinity" in not found in the bible either, yet the Church would never argue the reality of Trinity is not scriptural. And when you insist that Maccabees is completely off the table, you immediately restrict debate, which I am sure will be already constricted, de facto, by your nearly absolute sola scripture audience. So, if it is actual truth you seek, all these issues would be open. But, since discussions regarding Catholic theology always force the Church's argument to fight with one hand tied behind its back by having to discuss issues from a sola scriptura point of view, that is expected. But, in addition, you want to remove deutero canonical sources. From your perspective, allowing these sources of input is like giving extra arms and hands. However, if it is really truth you seek, no avenues should be closed. But, I understand arguing from Tradition simply opens up a much broader unwieldy discussion. Therefore, I am back to my earlier point that Maccabees should not be dismissed so easily. It is only very recently that Protestant bibles do not even contain this book, let alone identify it as deuterocanonical.

 

[Giver]

You do not quite understand Purgatory. You are arguing against a incorrect definition. Your argument suggests that only those with sins "unto death" will reach hell. That is true in Catholicism as well. In other words, that sinful behavior that is NOT of a believer will not lead one to Purgatory either. That person is doomed to hell as you point out. I dont think you are suggesting only the "sinless", those without ANY sin will fail to see heaven. So you must be suggesting those who lived in a sinful lifestyle cannot enter Purgatory or heaven. That is correct.

Purgatory is for those sins which are inadvertent , which do not represent a lifestyle , which are those imperfections of our fallen nature which all born again Christians carry with them. Christians are NOT perfect, and we reject a living a sinful life, YET we still fall and seek forgiveness. Its that part of our nature that is still imperfect, not completely free of all sin for which Purgatory applies. The bible says no one not holy will enter heaven. Catholic teaching interprets that literally , and not as Martin Luther interpreted it to mean, which is simply being covered of our dung. Purgatory makes us truly holy, completely sanctified, as the bible requires us to be for heaven.

What I share is not an argument against the Catholic Churches teaching of purgatory. I understand the Churches teachings on purgatory, and believe it to be in error.

The Churches understanding of sin is in error, so it’s understanding of purgatory has to also be in error.

The Church makes mortal sin, and venial sin. Yet mortal does not truly mean mortal.

Jesus has taught me that a Christian does not sin. He means any sort of sin, but not all sin leads to death.

The sin that leads to death is any sin deliberately committed by one who has received the knowledge of the truth.

Only a Spiritual Christian can receive the knowledge of the truth.

A Spiritual Christian is one who has let the Holy Spirit direct his or her life totally. The Holy Spirit teaches one to live the whole Word of God, and gives one the grace to do that. Living the whole Word of God means one will never sin.

A deliberate sin by a Spiritual Christian is never forgivable, and such a person will never enter the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Rhamiel]

Catholics have a diversity of opinion about what Purgatory is like

the traditional view is suffering of a horrible nature and could take some considerable time
but others are of the opinion that Purgatory is not suffering, but merely a state of cleansing

 

[mickey30981]

What I share is not an argument against the Catholic Churches teaching of purgatory. I understand the Churches teachings on purgatory, and believe it to be in error.

The Churches understanding of sin is in error, so it’s understanding of purgatory has to also be in error.

The Church makes mortal sin, and venial sin. Yet mortal does not truly mean mortal.

Jesus has taught me that a Christian does not sin. He means any sort of sin, but not all sin leads to death.

The sin that leads to death is any sin deliberately committed by one who has received the knowledge of the truth.

Only a Spiritual Christian can receive the knowledge of the truth.

A Spiritual Christian is one who has let the Holy Spirit direct his or her life totally. The Holy Spirit teaches one to live the whole Word of God, and gives one the grace to do that. Living the whole Word of God means one will never sin.

A deliberate sin by a Spiritual Christian is never forgivable, and such a person will never enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Yes, I thought this is where you might be going. Unfortunately, this argument only sounds like word games to me. No disrespect. I just never bought it. You will need to give me your scriptural argument. You simply define sin as only that which you do deliberately. But thats not what Paul even said. He said he does that which he did not want to do. He did not want to do it deliberately but he still calls it sin! And he still asks for prayers to ensure he "wins the race". Sin is sin whether it was deliberate or not. It is simply not biblical to me to say that Christians do not sin! The bible is full of admonitions to the Christian against sin that are balanced with the message of mercy when we seek forgiveness. You will have to prove otherwise to me first.

In any event, thats a whole other debate. But, you raise a good point that the very definition of sin is crucial to understanding sanctification, salvation and hence, heaven and purgatory.

 

[rockytopva]

@ 4:00 in the following video...

"And I had a young man say to me if I could just make it in by the skin of my teeth I'll be happy. I said you don't have no teeth mister! I don't want to get in my making it in some back door someplace. But when I make it in I want the angels to stand at attention! I want to let them know here comes a man of God! I want them to know that I conquered the devil! And put him where he belongs! Can you shout amen!

Schambach - Press Toward the Mark -Philippians 3:14 - YouTube

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I'm probably more sympathetic to the idea of purgatory than even most Lutherans. The idea that if we have sins on our consciences when we die then we require a cleansing or purging makes perfect sense.

In the interest of working out my own ideas, I'd like to put forward an argument against purgatory that is more rooted in the western tradition than most objectives. Namely:

Augustine teaches, and Aquinas follows, that the corruption of the self is a result of disharmony between the lower faculties (the flesh and soul) and the higher faculties (the reason and will). In our sinful state, the flesh guides the will instead of reason and thus corrupts the soul. Couldn't we simply understand bodily death as the sloughing off of the fleshly source of sinful living? This is, I think, how Augustine (rightly) understood the Paul's use of the term flesh (sometimes a neutral term but often negative, in contrast to "body" which is sometimes neutral but mostly positive). In that case, death itself is a cleansing because it cleanses of the fomes peccati, the tender of sin, that has disordered the body and corrupted the soul.

Of course, one might still object that while there is no longer any source for sin, the soul still remains distorted by a lifetime habitus of fleshly sinfulness. In which case, I'm basically back to purgatory. Nope, can't escape the logic.

Actually, though, because there is no fomes peccati in the soul after death, I would have to conceive any afterlife as being a process of reforming the soul in accordance with the higher faculty of reason (reason, of course, rightly guided by the Spirit to conform to the Logos). In that case, purgatory really becomes a sort of monastery-like realm of inner contemplation and worship, which is really not really distinct from heaven except by degree.

 

[PaladinValer]

I'm probably more sympathetic to the idea of purgatory than even most Lutherans. The idea that if we have sins on our consciences when we die then we require a cleansing or purging makes perfect sense.

In the interest of working out my own ideas, I'd like to put forward an argument against purgatory that is more rooted in the western tradition than most objectives. Namely:

Augustine teaches, and Aquinas follows, that the corruption of the self is a result of disharmony between the lower faculties (the flesh and soul) and the higher faculties (the reason and will). In our sinful state, the flesh guides the will instead of reason and thus corrupts the soul. Couldn't we simply understand bodily death as the sloughing off of the fleshly source of sinful living? This is, I think, how Augustine (rightly) understood the Paul's use of the term flesh (sometimes a neutral term but often negative, in contrast to "body" which is sometimes neutral but mostly positive). In that case, death itself is a cleansing because it cleanses of the fomes peccati, the tender of sin, that has disordered the body and corrupted the soul.

Of course, one might still object that while there is no longer any source for sin, the soul still remains distorted by a lifetime habitus of fleshly sinfulness. In which case, I'm basically back to purgatory. Nope, can't escape the logic.

Actually, though, because there is no fomes peccati in the soul after death, I would have to conceive any afterlife as being a process of reforming the soul in accordance with the higher faculty of reason (reason, of course, rightly guided by the Spirit to conform to the Logos). In that case, purgatory really becomes a sort of monastery-like realm of inner contemplation and worship, which is really not really distinct from heaven except by degree.

So in other words, it isn't so much the concept but the formal, Tridentine-era "depiction" that you reject, correct?

If so, I wholeheartedly agree, and it would seem that such a "depiction" has been distanced from by our Vatican Catholic brothers and sisters as well.

Really, I think the only thing wrong with their concept of Purgatory is not so much the concept of purging but, rather, the concept of Treasury of Merits that is still tied into it.

Of course, since that wasn't tackled in the original post, that post still leaves those of us who actually understand the Vatican Catholic position on the matter (to some high degree at least) puzzled as to what is actually being objected to.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

did anyone know that the greek word used in the phrase "Lake of Fire" for fire .. is "pur", and is also used in context of a blacksmith's flame? i am also reminded of a passage proclaiming those who overcome will not be hurt by the second death . but it also implied those who do not over come .. will be hurt by the second death .. as Paul said .. they will be saved as through fire .. but their works .. burned .

that's what comes to mind when the phrase .. purgatory is mentioned .

 

[Giver]

Yes, I thought this is where you might be going. Unfortunately, this argument only sounds like word games to me. No disrespect. I just never bought it. You will need to give me your scriptural argument. You simply define sin as only that which you do deliberately. But thats not what Paul even said. He said he does that which he did not want to do. He did not want to do it deliberately but he still calls it sin! And he still asks for prayers to ensure he "wins the race". Sin is sin whether it was deliberate or not. It is simply not biblical to me to say that Christians do not sin! The bible is full of admonitions to the Christian against sin that are balanced with the message of mercy when we seek forgiveness. You will have to prove otherwise to me first.

In any event, thats a whole other debate. But, you raise a good point that the very definition of sin is crucial to understanding sanctification, salvation and hence, heaven and purgatory.

Sin is any wrongful doing. James says if one knows what is the right thing to do and does not do it that is a sin.

(1 John 5: 17) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the sinner - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.

(James 4: 17) “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.”

 

[concretecamper]

Let's discuss the following like adults who are searching for the truth!

Purgatory comes from the Latin, purgo, meaning, "I cleanse." The Catholic Church agrees that it is a place of suffering, but are divided on how those in purgatory suffer. Some say fire, others say, tribulation.

Those who teach purgatory say, "That some die in grace and in the friendship or God, but burdened with venial sins and imperfections, or before they have done suitable penance for their sins. They teach that the souls of these are cleansed in purgatory of these last hindrances to their entry into the vision of God.

Their communion with the faithful on earth is not broken. The living can bring comfort and alleviation to those in purgatory by their intercessions, by Masses, prayers, almsgiving, and other pious works which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to do for others of the faithful. They admit that the word purgatory in not a Biblical, and that this doctrine is not taught in Scripture." This from the words found in the Catholic Catechism.

The doctrine is founded on several verses, one being 2 Mac.12:43-44-45. I will not bring these verses into the discussion because Maccabees has no evidence of being Divinely inspiration.

Matt.12:31-32-33, Jesus said, "I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

1 Cor.3:15, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (meaning purgatory.)"

1 Pet.3:19, "By which also He (Jesus) preached unto the spirits in prison (meaning purgatory.)"

This is a teaching of the Catholic Church; Restorationist and Mormons who deny that death brings the final judgment. They maintain that millions of people will have an opportunity for salvation after they die. The Jehovah Witnesses believe men do not have a soul or spirit, and upon his death, the body goes back to dust. But, on the last day, God will create them again out of nothingness.

Each denomination has its own little twist, but the following will give us a rough idea of the thinking behind it. It is believed that God created only to bless. Christ's kingdom is moral in nature, and extends to moral beings in every state or mode of existence: that the probation of man is not confined to the present life, but extends through the mediational reign; and that as Christ died for all. Therefore before He delivers up the kingdom to the Father, all men shall be brought to a knowledge and truth, thus breaking the bondage of sin and death.

Your thoughts;

Phil LaSpino

I would say your characterization of the RCC teaching is a bit wrong.

1. All sin carries consequences. Although we may be forgiven, scripture tells us that there is a temporal punishment due to sin. Therefore, I can die with no venial or mortal sin, and still go to purgatory. Purgatory is where we are made perfect.

2. death does bring final judgment. A soul is judged immediately upon death.

3. Although the word purgatory is not found in the bible, the RCC maintains the cleansing that may be required of a soul is scriptural.


One does not cease being a member of the body of Christ just because their earthly life ends.

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

I do have several Catholic Bibles at home, but in my studies I use and quote from the K.J.B. Now because the Deuay version, and the K.J.V. are almost in full agreement and contain the following verses let's approach the subject from the 66 books that do agree!

One of the issues I have concerning this subject is, when I read the Scriptures, I have to conclude that once a person dies in the flesh their choice to follow the Lord, or not has already been made.

Heb.9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

It appears to me that purgatory is a third option, a gray area to which the Scriptures do not speak.

Matt.6:24, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

In my thinking is a person will love Christ and believe by faith, or they will not believe!

Gal.1:10, "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men I should not be the servant of Christ."

Let's talk about sin! We can examine particular sins which are to be gathered from the context; Lets begin with the sin of unbelief, John 8:21-24, "Ye shall die in your sins," that seem pretty clear. Of lewdness 2 Pet.2:14, "Eyes -- that cannot cease from sin." Of defection from the religion of Christ, Heb.11:25, "Choosing rather -- the pleasures of sin for a season." Heb.12:1, "Sin which so easily beset us."

Proneness to sin, sinful desires or propensity, John 8:34, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." Rom.6:1, "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Rom.6:2, "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer?" Rom.6:6, "The old man is crucified with Him that the body of sin might be destroyed." Rom.6:12, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body." Rom.6:14, "Sin shall not have dominion over you."

These are some of the arguments against the teaching of a Purgatory!

Phil LaSpino

 

[concretecamper]

One of the issues I have concerning this subject is, when I read the Scriptures, I have to conclude that once a person dies in the flesh their choice to follow the Lord, or not has already been made

Phil LaSpino
[/COLOR]

This is the RCC teaching.....there is no third option

 

[ebia]

Since the OP's post is inaccurate on what Vatican Catholics even believe about Purgatory, the entire post is null, void, and forfeit.

As usual.

 

[ebia]

Catholics have a diversity of opinion about what Purgatory is like the traditional view is suffering of a horrible nature and could take some considerable time but others are of the opinion that Purgatory is not suffering, but merely a state of cleansing

Nor is it diffinitively a place.

 

[ebia]

I do have several Catholic Bibles at home, but in my studies I use and quote from the K.J.B. Now because the Deuay version, and the K.J.V. are almost in full agreement and contain the following verses let's approach the subject from the 66 books that do agree! One of the issues I have concerning this subject is, when I read the Scriptures, I have to conclude that once a person dies in the flesh their choice to follow the Lord, or not has already been made. Heb.9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." It appears to me that purgatory is a third option, a gray area to which the Scriptures do not speak. Matt.6:24, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." In my thinking is a person will love Christ and believe by faith, or they will not believe! Gal.1:10, "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men I should not be the servant of Christ." Let's talk about sin! We can examine particular sins which are to be gathered from the context; Lets begin with the sin of unbelief, John 8:21-24, "Ye shall die in your sins," that seem pretty clear. Of lewdness 2 Pet.2:14, "Eyes -- that cannot cease from sin." Of defection from the religion of Christ, Heb.11:25, "Choosing rather -- the pleasures of sin for a season." Heb.12:1, "Sin which so easily beset us." Proneness to sin, sinful desires or propensity, John 8:34, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." Rom.6:1, "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Rom.6:2, "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer?" Rom.6:6, "The old man is crucified with Him that the body of sin might be destroyed." Rom.6:12, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body." Rom.6:14, "Sin shall not have dominion over you." These are some of the arguments against the teaching of a Purgatory! Phil LaSpino

You're arguing against a straw man.

Purgatory is not a third option, but the cleansing entry into "heaven" for those judged to go there. It's not a third place and it's not a second chance.