Purgatory

[VOW]

To Michie:

The next life has no dimension that we can comprehend. Time, space, matter, all will have no meaning. I think fear of Purgatory comes from the references to FIRE, because all of us have been burned at one time or another, and the pain is indescribable.

God doesn't want us to HURT. I see Purgatory more as us being a cranky, muddy, dirty, tired, hungry toddler....and God dunks us in a bathtub filled with warm water and soothing bubbles.... we're screaming our heads off, NOT wanting a bath! But after we're in the tub, it's rather nice! And then God has a big, warm, fluffy towel, fresh from the dryer, and we're wrapped in His love, clean and ready to enter Heaven, and sit at the Feast of the Lamb.

Or something like that, LOL.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[isshinwhat]

By Father Rob:

The notion of a "timed" purgatory is nonsense. . . to think that the Church actually wasted time sitting down and computing time for every possible sin. . . and then formulating indulgences (some free, some expensive!) to get you out of purgatory sooner is an embarassment.

Come'on now, Father Rob, be fair. They didn't teach those were the actual times one spent in Purgatory, it was a tool they used to teach the unlearned the concept of Purgatory and the gravity of their sins. Not everyone is a theologian ;-)

Neal

 

[Fr. Rob]

Originally posted by isshinwhat



Come'on now, Father Rob, be fair. They didn't teach those were the actual times one spent in Purgatory, it was a tool they used to teach the unlearned the concept of Purgatory and the gravity of their sins. Not everyone is a theologian ;-)

Neal

Dear Neal,

When the shoe-leather hits the pavement, the issue was not the high, theological opinion, but what the uneducated masses believed. The Saxons in Luther's time really believed that adage of the Dominician frair, Tetzel: "As a penny in the kettle rings, a soul from purgatory springs." Such nonsense as "pleniary indulgences" and "partial indlugences" were gobbled up by the poor sinners of that era with the same gusto as folks call in to today's "Prosperity Gospel" Televangelists like Mike Murdock and Kenneth Copeland. . . Give me $1000, and God will give it back to you as $10,000!

Today, of course, purgatory has lost it's financial place in the Church (it actally did shortly after Trent to be honest!) and consequently, the indulgences are generally attached to prayers (though I recall seeing an ad in a local RC newspaper in Y2K about buying a Jubilee Indulgence, Partial for 15,000 years in purgatory, for $50.00, and along with it you got a frameable pic of JP2).

Again, what was actually taught in Seminaries and believed in the Congregations in Rome in those rather turbulent times, I can't attest to. . . but we see the result of the extortion of the Saxons in Germany. Luther.

Father Rob

 

[ZooMom]

Christ's Blood doesn't 'cover' our sins. His Blood washes us clean. If you throw cloth of gold over a pile of sh*t, you won't be able to see the pile, but the smell will tell you that it's still there.

 

[isshinwhat]

That quote from Tetzel cannot properly be attributed to him. Given the amount of rhetoric spewed forth from the mouth of Luther, it is hard to tell what Tetzel actually said. Take this quote from Luther:

He [Tetzel] wrote that an Indulgence is a reconciliation between God and man and takes effect even though a man performs no penance, and manifests neither contrition nor sorrow.

Now contrast that with what Tetzel actually wrote:

A quote from Johann Tetzel's Vorlegung

The Indulgence remits only the pain of sins which have been repented of and confessed . . . No one merits an Indulgence unless he is in a truly contrite state.

As you can see, there is a difference in what he actually taught and what was reported of him.

As for partial or pleniary indulgences being nonsense...I am truly sad that you have cast aside a great gift of God. Any proper thing done out of love for God has merit when united with the offering of Christ, but they will not all have the same merit.

1 Peter 4:7-9 The end of all things is at hand; therefore keep sane and sober for your prayers. Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins. Practice hospitality ungrudgingly to one another.

James 5:19-20

My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[Michie]

"Christ's Blood doesn't 'cover' our sins. His Blood washes us clean. If you throw cloth of gold over a pile of sh*t, you won't be able to see the pile, but the smell will tell you that it's still there."


Your right I don't know what I was thinking when I said "cover".


Now here, take this bar of soap & wash out your mouth woman!

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Indulgences worry me because they are tied too closely with the idea that we can do anything to repay our debt to God. Some of my friends see indulgences as a second baptism where they can have the slate wiped clean. I was especially disturbed that the pope recently announced that anyone who after confession says a certain prayer on a particular saint's feast day would receive a plenenary indulgence (well something like two years ago, but that's recent by Church standards ).

I think that people don't realize that it is not the works that save us. It is the changes in us that the works bring about when done sincerely that have a spiritual effect.

 

[ZooMom]

:o


LOL!

 

[isshinwhat]

Some of my friends see indulgences as a second baptism where they can have the slate wiped clean.

I agree that this can be and is a problem. Some people don't realize that an indulgence is given only after forgiveness. :-( I wish they wold talk about these things more in homilies. They could correct a lot of abuses if they would just nip them in the bud, so to speak.

Neal

 

[Chili]

Indulgences are very effective as a means to achieve salvation and it would be good for America if they were introduced here. This assumption is based on the fact that when indulgences were thrown out also the glory of our civilization (Romantic period) ended.

 

[Chili]

Purgatory can last until we die and can also be as short as 42 months.

The first beast of Rev.13 spend 42 months in purgatory and the children of Israel spend 40 plus years there with the result that they died there as well.

Purgatory is when we are led into the promised land to work our our salvation with fear and trembling. It may not seem like this but where else do we "complete the race?"

Jesus died for the children of Israel because they did get lost. Hence, "follow me"

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Chili
Purgatory can last until we die and can also be as short as 42 months.

The first beast of Rev.13 spend 42 months in purgatory and the children of Israel spend 40 plus years there with the result that they died there as well.

Hi again Chili,

I see no reference to purgatory in Rev 13, verse 2 says the beast rose out of the sea. Not all commentators take that literally (in fact many of them don't).

Purgatory is when we are led into the promised land to work our our salvation with fear and trembling. It may not seem like this but where else do we "complete the race?"

In 2 Timothy 4:7 apostle Paul says, "have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith". I don't see how completing the race must be done in purgatory.

-Jason

 

[Chili]

Originally posted by Hoonbaba


Hi again Chili,

I see no reference to purgatory in Rev 13, verse 2 says the beast rose out of the sea. Not all commentators take that literally (in fact many of them don't).

Hi Hoonbaba, the first beast came out of the celestial sea
and had ten diamond studded horns to show victory over sin (ten commandments) and seven heads to show the victory of the Cardinal Virtues. This beast bore the stigmata to show that it had been crucified, etc.

The second beast came out of the earth with two heads to display the paradox "sinful yet saved." It was foreshadowed in Jn.1:13 between those born of god and those born of carnal desire.

.
In 2 Timothy 4:7 apostle Paul says, "have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith". I don't see how completing the race must be done in purgatory.

-Jason

Because the Gospels take place in purgatory, or purgatory by any other name. Purgatory is between rebirth and crucifixion. Why else would the RCC tell us to pick up our cross if it was not because Jesus had told us "follow me."

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Chili


Because the Gospels take place in purgatory, or purgatory by any other name. Purgatory is between rebirth and crucifixion. Why else would the RCC tell us to pick up our cross if it was not because Jesus had told us "follow me."

Wait so purgatory is NOT a place but rather a state of being??

I hear so many different thinsg about this...

-Jason

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

The confusion you are feeling is quite normal, so don't panic.

Part of the problem is that we're trying to put into human definition something that is entirely supernatural. Purgatory, or for that matter, Heaven itself, is a place with no time, no dimension. We won't be limited by our human senses.

I recall a discussion between Wolseley and a non-Catholic in the old King's Table forum. The non-Catholic said he didn't believe in Purgatory (of course) but he understood the need for a "cleansing" to occur before we are worthy to stand in the presence of God. He said that he envisioned a sort of "filter" that we pass through, when we make the transition from this world to the next. Wolseley said, "Yeah, that's it. And that 'filter' is Purgatory."

The discussion of so many days for each sin is ridiculous. References are made in the Bible about the "blink of an eye." Time has no meaning in the next life. But we will have to shed all that is worldly in THIS life to make the transition.

More confused? Good, LOL!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Chili]

The discussion of so many days for each sin is ridiculous. References are made in the Bible about the "blink of an eye." Time has no meaning in the next life. But we will have to shed all that is worldly in THIS life to make the transition.

True and a good point made VOW.

I especially like the last part "in THIS life to make the transition." Having said this it is also true that the children of Israel spend 40 years in the desert and died there nonetheless. After all if we must change "in this life" our days must be numbered.

 

[isshinwhat]

Wait so purgatory is NOT a place but rather a state of being??

I hear so many different thinsg about this...

This is one of those things we were talking about the other day. We are free to theorize about this until the cows come home There has been no formal declaration on this, other than the fact that there will be a final cleansing after death for those who need it-- 1 Cor 3:15. There really aren't too many details to be known about Purgatory, though.

What in particular is troubling you about this doctrine?

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by isshinwhat


This is one of those things we were talking about the other day. We are free to theorize about this until the cows come home There has been no formal declaration on this, other than the fact that there will be a final cleansing after death for those who need it-- 1 Cor 3:15. There really aren't too many details to be known about Purgatory, though.

What in particular is troubling you about this doctrine?

God Bless,

Neal

Hi Neal,

I no longer have trouble with it anymore

I found my answers already!

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Hoonbaba]

By the way, for some reason I thought that purgatory was a state of 'limbo' or something.

LOL!

-Jason

 

[Chili]

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
By the way, for some reason I thought that purgatory was a state of 'limbo' or something.

LOL!

-Jason

Limbo is for those outside of the Church. Limbo is life without the guidance of the Church and along the path of self determination without the benefit of communion with the saints in heaven.