Purgatory

[Michie]

I've been researching & asking questions about the Church for a little over a year now.

I was getting ready to attend some classes here at the Church last year but a family emergency came up.

I've read several books by Scott Hahn & *think* I pretty much have everything resolved before I do start taking classes.

The only thing I can't seem to line up with Scripture is purgatory.

Any cites for it?

Also, I thought when Jesus said:"It is finished." Before He gave up His Spirit on the cross, I thought He meant paid in full.

Will we all have to go to purgatory?

What is purgatory like?

Is it just one less step than hell?


Note To Wols:
STALKING you!

 

[pax]

Purgatory is INFINITELY better than Hell. In Hell there is no way to get to heaven Purgatory is more like a "pit-stop." This, of course is not meant to take away from Jesus' saving work on the cross. His death opened for us the gates of heaven. If Jesus hadn't died, the gates of heaven would still be closed. When we sin we are brought farther away from God. Mortal sins completely destroy the relationship. Venial sins weaken, but don't destroy. Since nothing unclean may enter the gates of heaven, and most of us will probably die with unconfessed venial sins on our souls we need a place to have our sins purged. This is where Purgatory comes in. Nobody knows exactly what it's like, but it probably involves some sort of suffering for a certain amount of time. Then, you go to Heaven. I should probably also note that Purgatory in the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches is not called Purgatory, but they have the same basic concept. I think they refer to it as a "final theosis" or something to that effect.

 

[drdavis]

Matthew 5:25 suggests the existance of purgatory. "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going to him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard and you be put in prison, TRULY, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny."

Prison could not mean HELL, since a soul sentenced to hell never gets out. Purgatory is a place saved souls, with the stain of venial sins go to be purfied before entering heaven because nothing unpure will enter heaven.

Let me know when you decide to start RCIA.

PAX
drdavis

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Think about times of self reflection when you realized that you have failed. This comes with a necessary amount of pain. Because few of us are perfect saints, we need to "fix" ourselves before we tolerate being in God's presence, where all of our faults become painfully obvious.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[patriarch]

Michie,

Sounds to me that when you "get out of purgatory" you'll practically be Catholic .

On April 22 I started a thread called "Purgatory for Everyone" at the Interfaith forum which is presently on page two of that forum. You'd ordinarily be getting more replies to your post, but I am pretty sure the Catholic apologists on this board are sick to death of Purgatory for the moment. We had something like 153 replies and 1700 views. Your answers are there somewhere, believe me.

Also check out this article at First Things: http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0204/articles/walls.html

It's wonderful to hear of the progress you are making. "May God who has begun a good work in your bring it to perfection"

Lee

 

[Wolseley]

Hi, Michie!

I see you stalked me all the way over to CF!!!

Welcome to the board. If there's anything I can do for you, let me know!

The only thing I can't seem to line up with Scripture is purgatory.

Any cites for it?

Sure.

2 Maccabees 12:44-46; Judas Maccabeus prays for his dead comrades.

Matthew 12:32; some sins can be forgiven in the next world, apparently.

1 Corinthians 3:15; trial by fire.

2 Timothy 1:16-18; Paul prays for his dead friend Onesiphorus.

1 Peter 1:7; trial by fire.

Also, I thought when Jesus said:"It is finished." Before He gave up His Spirit on the cross, I thought He meant paid in full.

He did. Purgatory is part of the full price. Acceptance of Christ and baptism wipes out original sin; Confession wipes out post-baptismal mortal and venial sin; and Purgatory wipes out post-death venial sin. (Effects, not commission. ) All part of the same package.

Will we all have to go to purgatory?

That's up to God.

What is purgatory like?

Is it just one less step than hell?

Theologians speculate that it is similar to the torments of hell, with one major difference: in hell you are lost forever, without hope; in Purgatory you know that you're dead and saved, so there is no chance of you ending up in hell, and you know that when your time is up, you WILL be with the Father. As it's been described, "Your worst day in Purgatory is better than your best day on earth, because you are assured of your salvation."

Does this help?

 

[Michie]

Thanks everyone!

I'll check that link out.

What if a person were to confess to God or go to confession everyday?

As you can tell, the very thought of purgatory scares me.

I mean, you don't even know how long you'll be there.

Is there any comfort there, any signs of progress?

It sounds like a horror movie to me.

 

[Michie]

Oops! Hi Wols!

STALKING

 

[kern]

Originally posted by Michie

I mean, you don't even know how long you'll be there.

Is there any comfort there, any signs of progress?

Those are interesting questions -- I've never seen anyone say that you don't know how long you will be in there, but maybe I'm just not observant.

I would think that it would be a comfort that eventually it will be over, and the time you will spend there is infantessimal compared with the eternity in Heaven that comes afterwards.

-Chris

 

[VOW]

To Michie:

The idea that Purgatory was a detention classroom, or a game of baseball work-up was a concept pushed by the old Baltimore Catechist. The problem is, we're trying to define something that has no place, no time, no dimension that we understand. Sort of like describing color to a blind person, I suppose.

Another way to discuss Purgatory is to call it a PROCESS. It is often linked to a fire of purification, which I admit does sound kind of scary. Probably because of the negativity of hellfire and brimstone.

I got entangled in a thread in Interfaith Discussion about supposed rewards in heaven. (let's not go into that here, LOL!) One of the references cited was in 1 Corinthians, 3: 12-15. Paul talks about works of gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, and then fire testing the quality of one's works.

Have you ever seen a jeweler make a ring? The original mold is wax, and then a cast is made, and the molten gold is poured inside. After the metal hardens, the cast is broken, thrown away, and all the impurities are burned off in the flame. The stone is mounted, and again, the flame is used for polishing and shining and refining the jewelry.

THAT is Purgatory to me. All the petty things I've done, all the wrongs I've committed, the angry words, the wasted time, the insensitive things, the STUPID things, all will be burned away with the jeweler's flame, and only the shining gold of my Life in Christ will remain, shining forever, worthy of Heaven.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[jukesk9]

Howdy Michie. I urge you to take another look at what "it is finished" means. This is written by Scott Hahn. I believe he came to this conclusion before he became Catholic. Anyway, it deals with "it is finished" as referring to the Passover being complete and fulfilled with the Holy Eucharist. Here's a link:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/4thCup.htm

God bless.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by patriarch
Michie,

Sounds to me that when you "get out of purgatory" you'll practically be Catholic .

On April 22 I started a thread called "Purgatory for Everyone" at the Interfaith forum which is presently on page two of that forum. You'd ordinarily be getting more replies to your post, but I am pretty sure the Catholic apologists on this board are sick to death of Purgatory for the moment. We had something like 153 replies and 1700 views. Your answers are there somewhere, believe me.

Also check out this article at First Things: http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0204/articles/walls.html

It's wonderful to hear of the progress you are making. "May God who has begun a good work in your bring it to perfection"

Lee

Hi Lee,

Is that the article written by a protestant?

God bless!

-Jason

 

[ZooMom]

Hi Michie.


I think of the 'pains' of Purgatory not as physical pain, but heart/soul pain. The agony of true contrition when we are made fully aware of *every* wrongdoing, of every prejudice, of every missed opportunity. And fully aware of the pain of God's sorrow during those times.

Just my perspective.

 

[Michie]

Went to the mailbox today.

Envelope inside from All Saints Parish.

Letting me know RCIA classes start the end of this month.



Weird or what?

 

[AngelAmidala]

Wow...very cool!

 

[ZooMom]

Not weird.

Signal Graces. Keep your eyes and heart open for them.

 

[Michie]

I haven't heard from them since...I dunno, a little over a year?

Timing was just very strange.



Now if I'd just get my letter from the Pope!

I wrote him not too long ago.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Hoonbaba


Hi Lee,

Is that the article written by a protestant?

God bless!

-Jason

Hm..nevermind. it is =)

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Fr. Rob]

Purgatory has been so widely debased by the Roman Church itself over the years, the virtually every Protestant (and even most Catholics) no longer hold to what everyone once thought of as purgatory.

The Thirty-Nine Articles specifically denies a belief in the "Romish" doctrine of purgatory, stating that it is a vain thing. Indeed, the Anglican branch of the Catholic Church to this day does not admit the belief in a Puragatory with pardons, indulgences, invocation of saints, etc.

However, I have not yet met an Anglican Presbyter/Priest who won't accept the belief of something similar to Purgatory (though we won't call it that as a matter of obedience to our doctrinal statement).

We are all sinners, and God knows that. However, for some reason, though all sin *separates* us from God, only certian ones *guarentee* our eternal condemnation (see the list of "deadly sins" in your Bibles). If you die, unrepentant, in "Deadly Sin" well, by the book, good-bye.

However, what happens if we have told a little white lie. . . something like, "that's a cute baby!" when it is in fact the ugliest baby you've seen in ten years. Is this listed amongst the damnable sins of scripture? No.

Can we inherit the Kingdom of God if we are in that state of sin? No. It must be purged.

There must be some form of cleansing at the time of the passage from life to death, because once you are dead, that's the end of your chances. There's no praying an un-repentant murderer out of hell.

The notion of a "timed" purgatory is nonsense. . . to think that the Church actually wasted time sitting down and computing time for every possible sin. . . and then formulating indulgences (some free, some expensive!) to get you out of purgatory sooner is an embarassment.

Also, if we look at the Ancient Church, they belived that no-one inherited the Kingdom of Heaven until the Second Coming. You will occassionaly see an exception for Martyrs, but you will not find one reference in the ancient Church to the Blessed Virgin, or any common Christain entering heaven at the time of death. Instead they went to Abraham's bousum (aka Hades, not Gehennah) (the "Hell" of the Apostles' Creed -- another bad English translation).

This is the Anglican Catholic perspective. . . just to give you some variety.

Fr. Rob

 

[Michie]

Thanks Fr. Rob,
Your post made alot of sense to me & really set me at ease.

Thank you!


What was it Paul said?

To die is to be with the Lord?
Something along those lines anyway.

I always thought that dying would be a joyful thing for a follower of Jesus.

Like the blink of an eye.
Pass from here to eternity with the Lord.

His blood covers our sins & aren't we sanctified upon death after we lose our fleshly bodies?

You know the verse, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

A follower of Jesus Christ has a willing spirit but we fight with our flesh. Upon losing that, I just thought we'd go to be with the Lord.

No waiting room.

Anyway....