Purgatory - thoughts?

[Rosesandthorns]

What are your thoughts on purgatory? The people who don't know who Jesus Christ is or have struggled with sin so much that they couldn't hold on to their salvation? Do you believe God is merciful to them?

1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.

Most importantly, however, this idea of “works” being “burned up” apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text itself. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives... he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he will be saved, but only as through fire” (Gr. dia puros). The truth is: both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by St. Paul in order that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord. Sounds an awful lot like Purgatory.

Also, do you believe the unpardonable sin can be comitted today?

 

[Hoaur]

1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.

It is believed (and taught in the creeds) that Jesus descended into hell and not purgatory. There is nothing in scripture that supports the existence of purgatory.

 

[1am3laine]

What are your thoughts on purgatory? The people who don't know who Jesus Christ is or have struggled with sin so much that they couldn't hold on to their salvation? Do you believe God is merciful to them?

1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.

Most importantly, however, this idea of “works” being “burned up” apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text itself. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives... he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he will be saved, but only as through fire” (Gr. dia puros). The truth is: both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by St. Paul in order that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord. Sounds an awful lot like Purgatory.

Also, do you believe the unpardonable sin can be comitted today?

Yes, the unpardonable sin can be committed today. For instance, the people who took the "blasphemy challenge" via youtube and on twitter. (rational response squad)

I, for instance, have died twice and I wasn't in a heavenly place that people think heaven would seem like.

I talk about it in the video below.

 

[HTacianas]

What are your thoughts on purgatory? The people who don't know who Jesus Christ is or have struggled with sin so much that they couldn't hold on to their salvation? Do you believe God is merciful to them?

1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.

Most importantly, however, this idea of “works” being “burned up” apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text itself. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives... he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he will be saved, but only as through fire” (Gr. dia puros). The truth is: both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by St. Paul in order that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord. Sounds an awful lot like Purgatory.

Also, do you believe the unpardonable sin can be comitted today?

I have no specific beliefs on purgatory except that there is support for the idea of an "intermediate state" after death.

 

[Hoaur]

I have no specific beliefs on purgatory except that there is support for the idea of an "intermediate state" after death.

What support is that?

 

[Albion]

What are your thoughts on purgatory?

Certainly. Purgatory is a 15th century invention that has virtually no Scriptural basis. It is so much a product of Medieval superstition that even the one and only denomination that has held to it is running away from it as fast as it can in our own times.

 

[Albion]

What support is that?

As support for Purgatory...none at all.

But the point was that one thing, one general idea only which is similar to Purgatory, is also believed in by the Eastern Orthodox churches, in case anyone is interested.

 

[Hoaur]

As support for Purgatory...none at all.

But the point was that one thing, one general idea only which is similar to Purgatory, is also believed in by the Eastern Orthodox churches, in case anyone is interested.

I’m interested. Are you saying that the Orthodox Church believes in purgatory?

 

[Albion]

I’m interested. Are you saying that the Orthodox Church believes in purgatory?

No, I am saying the exact opposite. But as HTacianas noted in his post, the Eastern Orthodox churches believe there is something in the afterlife that is neither hell nor heaven.

That's often called a kind of "intermediate" place or state. But it has not much in common with the traditional description of Purgatory otherwise.

 

[Hoaur]

No, I am saying the exact opposite. But as HTacianas noted in his post, the Eastern Orthodox churches believe there is something in the afterlife that is neither hell nor heaven.

That's often called a kind of "intermediate" place or state. But it has not much in common with the traditional description of Purgatory otherwise.

Is this intermediate state official Orthodox doctrine?

 

[Albion]

It's standard, I think we can say, but you probably would do best to ask the question in the Orthodox forum (TAW).

 

[HTacianas]

What support is that?

Jesus said at Matthew 12:32:

“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

This "begs the question", is there forgiveness in the age to come that is not granted in this age?

At 2 Maccabees 12, some Jews killed in a battle were found to have been carrying talismans of sorts at the time they died. Their companions prayed for them:

42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten.

So, those people were somewhere that the Jews believed they could be forgiven for what they had done. The Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 speaks directly to the idea of purgatory, though the Orthodox Church does not use the term "purgatory". Note that while mention is made of the "Catholic Church", it is not used in the same context most Westerners think. It is not the Roman Church:

"And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."

So yes, there is some intermediate state. What it is, where it is, what goes on there, I don't know.

 

[Jon Osterman]

While we are discussing this, is there any scripture that indicates that the soul can exist separate from the body?

 

[Albion]

Jesus said at Matthew 12:32:

“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Doesn't this just mean that there is no forgiveness, period, nowhere, no how? It doesn't suggest that anything can be forgiven in the afterlife, and to say that something will not happen under X circumstances does not mean that there are exceptions.

At 2 Maccabees 12, some Jews killed in a battle were found to have been carrying talismans of sorts at the time they died. Their companions prayed for them:

42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten.

It is to be noted that this reports on something which happened. That's it. There is no indication there that what these particular people did was right or effective. It doesn't prove that any particular mechanism in the afterlife would be employed in any way.

 

[YeshuaFan]

What are your thoughts on purgatory? The people who don't know who Jesus Christ is or have struggled with sin so much that they couldn't hold on to their salvation? Do you believe God is merciful to them?

1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.

Most importantly, however, this idea of “works” being “burned up” apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text itself. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives... he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he will be saved, but only as through fire” (Gr. dia puros). The truth is: both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by St. Paul in order that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord. Sounds an awful lot like Purgatory.

Also, do you believe the unpardonable sin can be comitted today?

Jesus died for ALL of my sins, and so I have no need to go anywhere to have a further purging of my sins, for if the shed blood of Christ could not do that already for me, could spend eternity there and still now get right with God!

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Jesus died for ALL of my sins, and so I have no need to go anywhere to have a further purging of my sins, for if the shed blood of Christ could not do that already for me, could spend eternity there and still now get right with God!

So you’re free to just sin all you want, and you get a free pass? Wow I had no idea.

 

[com7fy8]

What are your thoughts on purgatory? The people who don't know who Jesus Christ is or have struggled with sin so much that they couldn't hold on to their salvation? Do you believe God is merciful to them?

If I am struggling . . . this means I am not first depending on God to change me. I need to trust in Jesus who is able. So, I will stop at this, simply how we need to depend on how God in us makes us successful.

And in case ones have struggled, instead of trusting in and depending on how God is able > tell them we need to first submit to God and seek His correction of our nature so we are functioning in His love >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

And Jesus says there is what is impossible for humans. This means impossible for any and all of us. We all have sinned and failed and struggled, instead of snuggling with God in His love.

So, I would not put my trust in what can help people to procrastinate until after they die . . . why they keep taking it on their own selves to struggle in ways which are guaranteed to fail.

If my ways are not working, I need to submit to God.

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

And, by the way - - - yes, we have people who say they are praying and how do we submit to God? We trust God to do this with us. And now is our time to keep on praying for Him to do this in us. And He changes us into being gentle and quiet and submissive in His love.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, when it is obvious how I am failing, I be quiet and trust God to do all He pleases. I do not believe there is any other way; so there is no one and nothing else to trust.

 

[com7fy8]

1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.

I think you are saying that this scripture can mean that Jesus went to ones who had failed in this life, and He preached to them, even though they had died; and therefore He was giving them a second chance if they had failed in spite of knowing about God's standards; and I see how you cam trust that He was giving a first chance to ones who had never known of God. After all, I think you might be considering > if Jesus was preaching, preaching, for many of us, means to offer God's salvation to people. So, I think I can see why you might consider this scripture to be what can be used to support Purgatory.

But the Bible has so much present tense guidance, about how now to live for Christ. And I don't think anyone is superior so he or she somehow has more of one's own goodness to obey God, while others are unequal so they do not have enough of their own goodness and so they fail. Only God is good. Only God makes us able and successful, no thanks to our own selves.

Jesus preached to spirits in prison, right? I see this could mean that after Jesus so suffered and died on the cross, He notified Satan and his that their jig was up.

Also, while Jesus was on this earth He was preaching to sinners. And the spirits of such people were in prison, meaning they were restricted from heaven. This earth, then, is God's prisoner-of-war camp for Satan and his and evil, but they are on their way to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone.

In any case, I trust that we need to give people our good example with God's word now, and have hope for all which is possible with God now. I would not preach that Purgatory is our hope, but that Jesus in us now is our hope. There is all we need to do now, with God now . . . all which is possible with God and so it all is possible . . . all His word commands . . . now, since it is all possible with God.

By the way, have you read and fed on Hebrews 12:4-14?

 

[grasping the after wind]

So you’re free to just sin all you want, and you get a free pass? Wow I had no idea.

After such receiving such a wonderful gift of salvation, why would anyone want to sin? Why would a Christian consider a free pass to sin as something attractive or desirable? Is it your contention that Christians that try to refrain from sinning only do so in order to escape God's wrath?

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus died for ALL of my sins, and so I have no need to go anywhere to have a further purging of my sins, for if the shed blood of Christ could not do that already for me, could spend eternity there and still now get right with God!

Yes, we need how Jesus has washed away our sins. But we need how God changes our nature, in His love, so that "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17) This comes, I personally understand, through the correction which is testified in Hebrews 12:4-14. We now need to actively seek our Heavenly Father for the correction which changes us to share with Him in His holiness.

So, I am offering that having sins on our record or not is not all there is to it. We need how God changes us to become like Jesus > Galatians 4:19, 2 Corinthians 3:17-18.

So you’re free to just sin all you want, and you get a free pass? Wow I had no idea.

I think Yeshua Fan means that if we are not washed clean by Jesus, no amount of Purgatory can do what Jesus didn't do.

But I am offering, how we need deep correction of our nature, not only to try to not do sins. We need to be changed out of the nature which makes us able to sin . . . and also makes us weak so we can deeply suffer in many sorts of "torment" (1 John 4:18) which comes because of fear in one way or another.

This is another thing > Jesus cares about if we have peace or not. He cares how we are and how we feel; because He is compassionate. He knows our pleasures and escapes and self-medicating can not cure us of the nature which makes us weak enough to be degraded by stress and cruel and nasty anger and bitterness and unforgiveness and ongoing suffering about past things. Only God's almighty power of love can cure us of this stuff, make us immune with Him.

So, why put this off, even if there were to be Purgatory?

After such receiving such a wonderful gift of salvation, why would anyone want to sin? Why would a Christian consider a free pass to sin as something attractive or desirable? Is it your contention that Christians that try to refrain from sinning only do so in order to escape God's wrath?

We can experience how God's love is, and compare this with how we can be degraded by weakness to sin for pleasure. I think it is quite obvious how God's love is so superior; and how He effects our character and relating with people is so better.