Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

Ooops....

.... do as the Apostles and disciples all did instead of making up stories like purgatory (or taking them from pagan religions)

"FOLLOW JESUS"

yeshuaslavejeff said:

[obviously] God knows. He says clearly in HIS WORD.
Few people accept HIS WORD.
There was never 'purgatory' in HIS WORD> simple !
There was 'purgatory' in pagan heathen gentile nations.

Choose God's WORD, or pagan heathen gentile nations.

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That may be true, but it really doesn't have to be mentioned per se for it to be a holding place that must exist, that we gave a name to.

All I can come up that would change that is the fact that the "dead in Christ" will rise at his 2nd coming, so there is no real holding place. I think there is mention we are in a sleep state. If that can be verifed by most on what happens to us after death, then there likely is no Purgatory.

Seems to me where, if anywhere, where we go when we die, is the question Purgatory's existence relies on.

Kenny'sID said:

That may be true, but it really doesn't have to be mentioned per se for it to be a holding place that must exist, that we gave a name to.

All I can come up that would change that is the fact that the "dead in Christ" will rise at his 2nd coming, so there is no real holding place. I think there is mention we are in a sleep state. If that can be verifed by most on what happens to us after death, then there likely is no Purgatory.

Seems to me where, if anywhere, we go when we die, is the question Purgatory's existence relies on.

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Good - seeking the truth - seek from God's WORD,
always from GOD in line with God's WORD.

The answers and the warning are clear (the warnings especially, since they are repeated more than the other).

This forum is not an ideal place (understatement!?)
to try to learn the truth from SCRIPTURE - take everything
to GOD in prayer, and VERIFY in HIS WORD
BEFORE accepting anything.

Those 'reasons' you mention are the things the deceivers use to trick people who don't verify by SCRIPTURE.

It sounds 'reasonable' to them , so they are sunk.
As written "there IS A WAY
that seems right to men,
but the end thereof is the way of death"
(very much the same as the wide popular road ) ....

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Those 'reasons' you mention are the things the deceivers use to trick people who don't verify by SCRIPTURE.

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Oh, come off of it. Everything in his word is not crystal clear (I think that fact may even be biblical) and I am using his word to try to figure it out. .

And you aren't helping in the least, lol.

I'm as familiar with tricks as the next man but there is a such thing as going to far. Everything isn't a trick.

Jeff, how bout you use that knowledge of the bible and help us figure this out instead of doing what you are doing. We honestly want to know, are trying to trick no one, and most here are likely adult enough no to be tricked.

So where do people go when they die?

Martin Tom said:

Luther removed 7 books from the Bible

Is "Sola Scriptura" reasonable?

21 Reasons to Reject "Sola Scriptura"

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One of them has an excellent explanation for what near death experiences really are.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I believe it was later exposed , but am not sure.
Either way,
It was and is nothing to build anything on,
unless building on quicksand is okay for the house.(many many houses , many billions of souls , have been tricked and deceived and lost because of trusting things not in line with SCRIPTURE for the last 2000 years).

"credible" is only as much as proven in SCRIPTURE.
This thread and topic is about what is NOT in SCRIPTURE, what has tricked and decieved people for centuries.

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Actually it was another one that was somewhat similar..... but definitely another case.

And actually what happened as the young teenager who once had a near death experience got older and was taught the doctrines of his church...... .he was convinced by pastors that his story must have been false because it seemed to contradict how they personally understood the scriptures on the state of the dead.

The young man could not go against the Bible...... so he came out with the story that he must have been deceived somehow. He probably was thinking about that verse about Satan.... appearing as an angel of light.

Kenny'sID said:

Jeff, how bout you use that knowledge of the bible and help us figure this out instead of doing what you are doing. We honestly want to know, are trying to trick no one, and most here are likely adult enough no to be tricked.

So where do people go when they die?

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First..... you float outside your body exactly like II Corinthians 12:2-4 describes.

Then you may meet some deceased relatives...... one near death experiencer in six meets a deceased pet , this is especially true in the case of children...... who are terrified to find themselves outside their bodies. Little Colton Burpo reported that there are many pets and animals in heaven.

Then.... about twenty percent of near death experiencers review their lives with a being of light...... I am guessing that in the case of actual death this would be one hundred percent...... .except for the people who find reviewing their lives too painful....... and run away from the light...... perhaps they are quoting to themselves that verse about Satan appearing as an angel of light.........

Dr. George Ritchie reported many levels to the afterlife.... they get better and better and better..... which fits with String Theory, Grand Unified Theory, and The Cyclic Model of the Universe.

Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience

Kenny'sID said:

Jeff, how bout you use that knowledge of the bible and help us figure this out instead of doing what you are doing. We honestly want to know, are trying to trick no one, and most here are likely adult enough no to be tricked.

So where do people go when they die?

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It took me five years of reading many NDE accounts ..... and comparing them with other scriptures.......to get over my dogmatic belief in the Soul Sleep doctrine as taught by the Worldwide Church of God.

There are so many verses that can appear like this idea is true...... that it is awfully difficult to come out of this belief.

PollyJetix said:

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

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Some will be saved only "through fire," and others will be forgiven "in the age to come." These are good scriptural supports for purgatory. What is purgatory?

It's another false teaching derived from Catholicism. This life is the purgatory. It's not like you die and go to a waiting area because God can't process His judgement fast enough because there's a long lineup or something.

Imo

Oh boy.

PollyJetix said:

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

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I'll be blunt. This is all wildly off-base from what Catholics believe. Allow me to explain why. First, Purgatory.

Purgatory does not add to what was accomplished on the Cross, nor does it bypass the Cross. It is only possible through the Cross. The existence of Purgatory, really, is self-evident. Nothing that is unclean shall enter the Kingdom of God (Rev 21:27). I dare say that none of us will be wholly clean when we die. And no "covering" of our sins can deceive God. Shall we suppose that God can ignore sins? By no means! Rather, we must be purified. One might even say our sins must be purged from us. Purgatory is the place of this purification.

As far as Scripture goes, first we have Second Maccabees. Though you may not recognize this work's canonicity as the Catholic and Orthodox churches do, it is a historical text, from which we can learn things about ancient Jewish practice. In 2nd Maccabees, specifically Chapter 12, vss 39-46, Judas Maccabeus and his soldiers discover fallen Israelites who were carrying tokens of a pagan god under their tunics, which would be sinful. Judas and his companions conclude these men died because of their sin, and then pray for the dead men to be forgiven. He also sets up a "sin collection" to make atonement for their sins. Thus, we see clearly that the Jews believed that the sins of the dead could be forgiven after death. Jesus never speaks on this, true, but he never explicitly condemns it, even when he condemns other practices of empty piety.

Secondly in support of Purgatory, Jesus speaks in the Sermon on the Mount about making peace with your enemies. In Mt 5:25-26, He says to make peace, lest you be thrown into prison. Is this talking about temporal prison? Unlikely. Is it talking about Hell? Also unlikely, considering He adds that even if you end up in this prison, you can leave—after you've paid the last penny. Also pointing to a supernatural understanding of "prison" is that the Greek work, phulake, is also used in the First Epistle of Peter to describe where Jesus went after His death.

Finally, we have First Corinthians and the Trial by Fire (1Cor 3:11-15). This is obviously speaking about the judgement more particularly, but notice that even the one whose work is lost, is himself saved. That is Purgatory at its essence: a painful process that ultimately saves us. But again, it only works by the Cross.

Now, as for canonized saints...of course, we are all "saints" in a sense. Canonization is merely saying that this person is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, in Heaven, and moreover that they are a good model of Christian living. It doesn't mean that your grandmother is not in heaven. It just means that we don't have explicit confirmation, which nowadays comes through miracles attributed to the saint's intercession.

But then " sola scriptura" is not only not scriptural, it is expressly denied by scripture and history. So perhaps you look in the wrong place. Scripture tells us, The " pillar of truth is the church" not scripture,

And many doctrines e.g. Trinity are not explicit but implicit.

And you are wrong about scripture.
It is there in 2 Maccabees 12 - the Jewish practice of prayers for the dead that their sins may be forgiven,

And before you say it Maccabees most certainly WAS in the Septuagint, the Greek OT which was demonstrably the version of OT quoted by apostles AND provably Jesus too. So it is clearly valid scripture, There are enough differences to know which was quoted from Greek, and which from hebrew. If Maccabees isn't in your bible, then perhaps you should get an authoritative version instead of the Protestant stripped down version.

There are other references.
Such as Jesus dying, goes to preach to spirits in hell in Peter, and " purify as if by fire"Corinthians.

Until the reformation misled Christians with the false doctrine " sola scriptura" , sacred tradition of all Christians held that to enter heaven needed purity, " cleansing".

Jews have always believed that prayers for the dead were effective, Orthodox name the process " purgation" " theosis" Catholics allude to a place where it happens " purgatory", not least because Jesus went there in Peter.

But tell me.

Do you really believe you ate pure enough for heaven . As you are?

PollyJetix said:

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

Click to expand...

PollyJetix said:

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

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Google "selling indulgences."

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Being sincere won't help anyone.

Everyone on the wide path to destruction is sincere , possibly.

That is the "easy" path, one reason people take it, along with all the deceivers guiding them.

The hard path, the narrow path to life, JESUS, is not popular.

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Jesus said that his yoke is easy and burden light. Are you saying that He was wrong and His way is actually hard?

RaymondG said:

Jesus side that his yoke is easy and burden light. Are you saying that He was wrong and His way is actually hard?

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Keep seeking the TRUTH, as it is not accepted by the majority, and it is , well>> read for yourself >>

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate ...
biblehub.com/matthew/7-13.htm - Cached - Similar
For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who .... It is a broad way; there are many paths in it; there is choice of sinful ways.

=============================
Matthew 7:13-14 - The Narrow and Wide Gates - “Enter - Bible ...
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:13-14 - New International Version - Cached
The Narrow and Wide Gates - “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter.

=============================
Matthew 7:13 - Bible Gateway
Matthew 7:13 - Bible Gateway - Cached - Similar
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad and easy to travel is the path that leads the way to destruction and eternal loss, and there are ...

A short excerpt:
...
...
"... However, the gate to heaven is “narrow” in the sense of having a particular requirement for entrance—faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is found only in the Person of Jesus Christ; He is the only way (John 14:6). The “wide” gate is non-exclusive; it allows for human effort and all other of the world’s religions.

Jesus says that narrow gate leads to a “hard” road, one that will take us through hardships and difficult decisions. Following Jesus requires crucifying our flesh (Galatians 2:20; 5:24; Romans 6:2), living by faith (Romans 1:17; 2 Corinthians 5:7; Hebrews 10:38), enduring trials with Christlike patience (James 1:2–3, 12; 1 Peter 1:6), and living a lifestyle separate from the world (James 1:27; Romans 12:1–2). When faced with the choice between a narrow, bumpy road and a wide, paved highway, most of us choose the easier road. Human nature gravitates toward comfort and pleasure. When faced with the reality of denying themselves to follow Jesus, most people turn away (John 6:66). Jesus never sugar-coated the truth, and the truth is that not many people are willing to pay the price to follow Him....
...
... '
Why did God make salvation such a narrow path?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Keep seeking the TRUTH, as it is not accepted by the majority, and it is , well>> read for yourself >>

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate ...
biblehub.com/matthew/7-13.htm - Cached - Similar
For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who .... It is a broad way; there are many paths in it; there is choice of sinful ways.

=============================
Matthew 7:13-14 - The Narrow and Wide Gates - “Enter - Bible ...
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:13-14 - New International Version - Cached
The Narrow and Wide Gates - “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter.

=============================
Matthew 7:13 - Bible Gateway
Matthew 7:13 - Bible Gateway - Cached - Similar
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad and easy to travel is the path that leads the way to destruction and eternal loss, and there are ...

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I agree that the way is narrow and few there be that find it. But once you find it, it is much easier than following religion. Do you disagree?

RaymondG said:

I agree that the way is narrow and few there be that find it. But once you find it, it is much easier than following religion. Do you disagree?

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Loaded question? (not on purpose I think)....

Following JESUS HIS WAY, is the ONLY WAY. JESUS promised that everyone who seeks to follow HIM
willl necessarily suffer painful persecution
often from family, (and separation, as God directs)
from friends (former friends),
from "buddies" who don't understand why they don't go party every weekend like they used to,
from religious leaders (hired help, and hypocrites),
from governments/ soldiers/ any group in society/ etc
and so on....
Like for example the Jews during the roundups during wwII...
(and the Christians who protected and helped them)
and
the million plus Christians in China who were executed in about one years (I think abot 1902, but not sure) (Corrie ten Boom made this known world wide decades ago; and much much more - the slaughter of millions around the world) ...
so,
"easy" ? not in the usual way... no....

Yet the ONLY way to perfect joy, righteousness and peace and healing and salvation today on earth !

Kenny'sID said:

We honestly want to know, are trying to trick no one, and most here are likely adult enough no to be tricked.

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In this thread and forum you actually believe that ?
Look how many visitors are opposed to the BIBLE ! (most!)
They reject it, flat out.
And they mock, ridicule, slander God and His WORD and His children.
As they have since Jesus was on earth,
as Jesus said they would, they do.....

When the plan of God, the plain simple truth of Scripture (that you might know if they had not come up with so many false schemes hundreds of years ago and flooded the world with them)
is posted, it is marked and noted for attack (to be attacked) as it was already so many times TODAY ALONE!

PM if you would like more info. It derails the thread and upsets too many visitors.

PollyJetix said:

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Click to expand...

Then you don't really understand what purgatory is.