Purgatory - Must we believe it!

[blessed2]

and the Church for more than 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

actually this is not true. Christ died but just over 2000 years ago and the Bible never says "purgatory" if such a place existed it wouldn't be a "catholic" concept but also a jewish one as Christ was a jew andthe roots of our entire faith is based on the jewish.
Purgatory is an interpretation to certain scriptures. However, after Christ died on th cross he went below though notice that the righteous and unrighteous are separated by a gulf....here he preached the gospel and left many captives(those in sheol) free. The righteous in paradise and the ****** in sheol.
Note on the cross Christ told the theif "Today" you will be with me in paradise.
Prior to Christ....the penalty for sin was death.
Christ paid that price.....we live in the age of grace.
Which side of the cross do you live?
If purgatory was real....1)then why would I need Christ? I could just work out my own salvation by suffering there.
2) Christ would not be sufficient.
3) Then God who says that he is faithful to forgive...and casts our trespasses into the sea's of his forgetfulness....would be a lie.
That's like your child coming to you and telling you that they did something wrong and begging for your forgiveness....you say ok, then beat them.
Purgatory is the opposite of forgiveness.

 

[isshinwhat]

Have you ever been convicted of some sin, possibly one that you have been committing for quite a long time? Did you not feel extremely sorry for committing that offense against God, maybe even driven to tears? If so, was that empty feeling of sorrow not suddenly replaced with a great joy which comes from the Holy Spirit at being forgiven? This is our sanctification. This is us growing as "partakers of the Divine Nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

Now, fast forward to your death. All of the things that you still have on your soul, those things which you weren't convicted of during your earthly life, you WILL be convicted of at death during your Particular Judgment. For those things you were convicted of but were unable to successfully turn fully from (which is what penance is), you will be cleansed of those things, too. Then, as in the Earthly Purgations we undergo, you will be cleansed of your sins, only this time the filling of the Holy Spirit will be complete and you will possess the Beatific Vision.

As I hope can be seen, Purgatory is not us working our salvation out alone, it is Christ's Holy Blood's final work of perfection in our souls. It is the Final Theosis, the last step in our Sanctification.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

Christ died but just over 2000 years ago and the Bible never says "purgatory" if such a place existed it wouldn't be a "catholic" concept but also a jewish one as Christ was a jew andthe roots of our entire faith is based on the jewish.

What is the Kaddish, and why do Jews pray it?

God Bless,

Neal

 

[blessed2]

What is the Kaddish, and why do Jews pray it?

Dear patient, gentle Neal.
I hope this answer your question.

MOURNER'S KADDISH
An English Translation

Glorified and sanctified be God's great name throughout the world which He has created according to His will. May He establish His kingdom in your lifetime and during your days, and within the life of the entire House of Israel, speedily and soon; and say, Amen.

May His great name be blessed forever and to all eternity.

Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honored, adored and lauded be the name of the Holy One, blessed be He, beyond all the blessings and hymns, praises and consolations that are ever spoken in the world; and say, Amen.

May there be abundant peace from heaven, and life, for us
and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who creates peace in His celestial heights, may He create peace for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

​

​

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The Meaning of Kaddish
​

Having read the translation of the Kaddish Prayer, one should realize that, although Jewish Law requires that the Kaddish be recited during the first eleven months following the death of a loved one by prescribed mourners, and on each anniversary of the death (the "Yahrtzeit"), and by custom in the State of Israel by all Jews on the Tenth of Tevet ("Yom HaKaddish HaKlali'), there is no reference, no word even, about death in the prayer!

The theme of Kaddish is, rather, the Greatness of G-d, Who conducts the entire universe, and especially his most favored creature, each individual human being, with careful supervision. In this prayer, we also pray for peace - from apparently the only One Who can guarantee it - peace between nations, peace between individuals, and peace of mind.

Paradoxically, this is, in fact, the only true comfort in the case of the loss of a loved one. That is, to be able to view the passing of the beloved individual from the perspective that that person's soul was gathered in, so to speak, by the One Who had provided it in the first place.

As Beruriah, the great wife of Rabbi Meir, consoled her husband, upon the death of their two sons, with words to this effect, "A soul is comparable to an object which was given to us - to each individual, to his or her parents and loved ones, to guard and watch over for a limited time. When the time comes for the object to be returned to its rightful owner, should we not be willing to return it? With regard to our sons, let us therefore consider the matter as 'The L-rd gave, and the L-rd took back, may the Name of the L-rd be Blessed!' "

 

[isshinwhat]

Thank you for posting. I have also bee told "that by sanctifying God's name in public, the mourners increase the merit of the deceased person. Kaddish is a way in which children can continue to show respect and concern for their parents even after they have died." I will ask stillsmallvoice to post a reply.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[jmbasque]

November...the month of the Holy Souls!
Please pray for them all through the month; have them pray for you and intercede for you and protect you.
"A Prayer to the Poor Souls in Purgatory**O holy souls in Purgatory, you are the certain heirs of Heaven. You are most dear to Jesus, as the trophies of His Precious Blood, and to Mary, Mother of Mercy. Obtain for me, through your intercession, the grace to lead a holy life, to die a happy death, and to attain to the blessedness of eternity in Heaven.

Dear suffering souls, who long to be delivered in order to praise and glorify God in Heaven, by your unfailing pity, help me in the needs which distress me at this time, particularly (here mention your request), so that I may obtain relief and assistance from God.

In gratitude for your intercession, I offer to God, on your behalf, the satisfactory merits of my prayers, works, joys, and sufferings of this day (week, month, or whatever space of time you wish to designate). Amen."

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Lessee here...

Please allow me to recycle some old posts:

Our prayer, the Mourner's Kaddish, is for the benefit of the soul of the deceased & is believed to ease the spiritual status of the deceased's soul as it goes through whatever trials & tribulations it may be subject to. Yes, we do believe in something akin to the RC notion of Purgatory & thus saying the Mourner's Kaddish would be similar to the RC idea of praying for the souls in Purgatory.

Look at http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/kadish.htm#Meaning .

The text there is the (5 clause) Mourner’s Kaddish in Hebrew, transliterated English & English (you can also listen to it in RealAudio).

As I understand it, a soul that has sinned in this world has to pay for its actions/inactions in the next world. We do not automatically & necessarily divide souls into the entirely righteous who will therefore enjoy enternal bliss and the entirely evil who will therefore suffer eternal damnation. The degrees in between are infinite & we believe that God rewards/punishes each soul according to its good/not good actions. As I indicated the recitation of the Kaddish prayer is believed to benefit the soul of the deceased as it goes through whatever trials and tribulations it has to endure in the next world.

In addition to the aforementioned Kaddish prayer (which is usually said by a son for a departed parent for 11 months after the day of burial, but which can also be said for 30 days for a spouse, child or sibling, particularly if none of these have children to say the Kaddish; the Kaddish is also recited on the anniversary of the burial), there are the Yizkor (literally: "He will remember") and E-l Maleh Rahamim (literally: "God Full of Mercy") prayers which are recited 4 times a year on Yom Kippur, the last day of Passover, Shavuot and Shemini Atzeret (see http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm for links to all of these holydays).

I submit the following excerpt (from http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm):

After the avelut [mourning] period is complete, the family of the deceased is not permitted to continue formal mourning; however, there are a few continuing acknowledgments of the decedent. Every year, on the anniversary of the death, family members observe the deceased's Yahrzeit (Yiddish, lit. "anniversary"). On the Yahrzeit, sons recite Kaddish and take an aliyah (bless the Torah reading) in synagogue if possible, and all mourners light a candle in honor of the decedent that burns for 24 hours. In addition, during services on Yom Kippur, Shemini Atzeret, the last day of Passover, and Shavu'ot, after the haftarah reading in synagogue, close relatives recite the mourner's prayer, Yizkor ("May He remember...") in synagogue. Yahrzeit candles are also lit on those days.

(...).

Kaddish
Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner's prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins "May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days ..." and continues in much that vein. The real mourner's prayer is E-l Maleh Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals.

Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners?

After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d, or to cry out against G-d's injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan, a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss.

Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.

In addition to the Kaddish. it is believed that the recitation of the Yizkor and E-l Maleh Rahamim prayers are beneficial to the soul of the departed. On the anniversary of the burial, it is common to study some chapter of the Talmud or the Tanakh (what we call what Christians call "The OT"), read a selection of Psalms, give to charity, etc. in honor/memory of the departed. This is also believed to be beneficial.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[isshinwhat]

Howzat?

Thank you! You are always a great source of information and blessing for all of us here.

May the Lord always call you to Himself.

Neal

 

[BAChristian]

If purgatory was real....1)then why would I need Christ? I could just work out my own salvation by suffering there.

I see Purgatory as a gift from God. And you're right, we do need Christ.

How I see this is, who's to say that purification is only for the dead?

I mentioned this the other day in one of my blog posts...

In Matthew 3:10-11 (NRSV), John the Baptist tells the Pharisees that, "Even now the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I baptize you with water for repentance, but one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the granary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

Our Lord baptizes us (which when we are baptized, we obtain repentance) with water AND fire. In the next sentence, however, John warns those who are the chaff, or the non-believers, where he references fire again, but in this context, he is reffering to Gehenna. There is a distinct difference.

Fire is mentioned so much in the Bible, from a purifying, cleansing reference, and a judgemental reference.

Thus, it is my understanding that we undergo this through baptism (we remember our baptism every time we enter the Church and dip our fingers into holy water), and fire (during our purification phase after death and during our continous purification here on Earth) and according to the above Scripture, who's to say that if we continously seek God that we don't obtain a continous purification? I'd like to think that God is continously working on purifying me even in this life -- in essence, my spiritual life shines on others...

Going a step even further, I become more pure with Sacramental reverance, penance, and Confession (which is a Sacrament)...

This all ties back to the core of my Christian belief -- faith. If I'm faithful and I keep my part of the bargain, my Lord will continously work on me -- to keep me pure in his sight.

 

[nyj]

Our prayer, the Mourner's Kaddish, is for the benefit of the soul of the deceased & is believed to ease the spiritual status of the deceased's soul as it goes through whatever trials & tribulations it may be subject to. Yes, we do believe in something akin to the RC notion of Purgatory & thus saying the Mourner's Kaddish would be similar to the RC idea of praying for the souls in Purgatory.

Thanks for the Orthodox Jewish commentary on the Kaddish, SSV. I got an entirely different POV (or was it a spin) from the Messianic "Jews", one which clearly denies the Kaddish being, as you state "for the benefit of the soul of the deceased".

 

[blessed2]

from the Messianic "Jews", one which clearly denies the Kaddish being, as you state "for the benefit of the soul of the deceased".

I actually didn't say. I looked into it after you mentioned it and copied and pasted that from an MJ site.
I aslo stated that purgatory was a strickly catholic thing as that was posted by a catholic person on the forums.
However, it was explained to be that these prayers are not to the benefit of the righteous but the ****** or unsaved.

 

[Benedicta00]

Now I know what the purgatory fascination was all about last week...it was the work of the Holy Spirit…

It was all souls day yesterday.

 

[blessed2]

This is the MJ view or purgatory from the MJ forum.

well, gehinom-hell is a waiting place for those who were evil.
the view that you quoted was something that came recently.

however, the orthodox view which is one of old is an idea of reincarnation called gilul.
but, there is no actual pergatory- just hell.
there are two places in death- one for the saints and one for those who were evil.
do those in the gehinom still have a chance- I dont know.
I do believe that they did have a chance when Messiah went to the place of the dead for three days.
(but I will have to make sure about him even going there)
but now?
I dont know- so,purgatory WAS g'hinom or it might still be- im not 100% sure right now- but when more knowledge comes I'll be sure to share it.

but one thing i do know is this- it is the waiting place for judgement- not actually refinement- though a person can be refined there- lol- im sorry, there are many questions i have myself about gehinom/hell - but it is not the place where you cease to exist- the place where you cease to exist is the lake of fire where death (gehinom and the paradise in death) is swallowed up.

shalom u'bracha

 

[nyj]

I looked into it after you mentioned it and copied and pasted that from an MJ site.

Yes, a Messianic Jew site, who are biased towards a Protestant view of Scripture. It's basically a no-brainer that they would say that the Kaddish wasn't a prayer for the dead, but rather for the ones left behind. If it's all the same to you, I'll stick with the Orthodox Jew interpretation of the Kaddish, since afterall, it is their prayer.

 

[blessed2]

This is an interesting topic of discussion...however, it is more important that we serve the Lord daily to our best ability rather than concentrating so much on what will happen after.

I personally don't think that a loving God sends you anywhere to suffer....we are refined by carrying our faith thru the trials of life and that the mystery of being made instantly incorruptable will serve for future and anything left over at the death of the saved will be covered by the blood of our Lord.
But, being 1 in the body of Christ should not allow our belief on this issue separate us or cause division but rather continue in the love of the Lord.

 

[nyj]

I personally don't think that a loving God sends you anywhere to suffer....

How does this comment jive with your next comment, made immediately afterwards...

...we are refined by carrying our faith thru the trials of life...

Hmm?

 

[Credo]

I personally don't think that a loving God sends you anywhere to suffer....

How does this comment jive with your next comment, made immediately afterwards...

Or even with Christ's own words?

Revelation 3:19 Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore and do penance.

 

[Benedicta00]

Blessed,


The suffering is a consequence of original sin.

God created us in his image and likeness, that means he gave us spirits, he created them to live forever and he gave us free will. That is how God creates man in his image and likeness.

Man was given gifts which included a suffering free life which man choose against, God is not unjust if we suffer because the gift that man lost was just that, a gift not to suffer, not a right not to suffer and man lost that gift.

It is not God's fault why we suffer, here or elsewhere, it’s ours.

 

[isshinwhat]

I personally don't think that a loving God sends you anywhere to suffer....

The Catholic Church has never defined whether Purgatory is a place or a state of being. That being said, it is not there for the purpose of making the souls who go there suffer. It is the final step in our sanctification where the Lord convicts us of our sins for the last time, that we may be made fully free from them.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Benedicta00]

Neal,

Isn't the stance that the article of faith is that we are to go through a purification process if need be before entering heaven but the where and the how is more or less just a pious opinion?