Purgatory - Must we believe it!

[tionfyre]

Expressly we say this but no one really knows what purgatory is like, we believe it may be like a purifying fire but we do not know, we do not call it a place either for we do not know if it is a state or a place and it is not a second chance, unrepentant sinners do not go to purgatory.

apologies for my wording. I went WAAAAY ahead of myself.

 

[BAChristian]

Its just another scare tactic....

Purification is not a scare tactic...nor does the Church try to instill the fear of God into you through the doctrine of Purgatory...

I don't consider being purified by God something to be scared about personally.

 

[KennySe]

Hello, everyone. Sorry that I'm late in this discussion.
(I read almos tthe whole thread in one go just now.)

I didn't see this posted, so here's why I'm here.

Scott Hahn (yeah, is there any subject the guy hasn't written about?) wrote a nice piece on Purgatory.


"Purgatory: Holy Fire"
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

I really like how he seems to "find stuff" in the Bible. He's a great detective. Here' a portion of the piece.
(Bolding by me.)

So here we see in 1st Peter, chapter 3, clear teaching for this intermediate state, but even more, an intermediate place. Now, somebody could say, "Where else do you go?" Let's take a look at the Book of Revelation, chapter 20, verses 4-6 and 11 and following. In Revelation 20, John has a vision. In verse 4 it says, "Then I saw heavenly thrones and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also, I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus." Probably a reference to the prophets like John the Baptist who had been literally beheaded for his marturia, his testimony. The word is mar-tu-ria, where we get the word martyrs. "...testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and it would not worship the beast or its image and had not received its mark on the forehead with their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years in heaven on these thrones." We'll return to this by the way when we look into the evidence from the New Testament for the cult of the saints, why we believe that some saints are actively interceding on our behalf with heavenly authority.

We go on, verse 5, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." They were dead but they weren't in heaven. They didn't come to life. "This is the first resurrection," that is, those who die and immediately go to heaven and sit on thrones because they were martyrs. That's the first resurrection, those who have been martyred. "Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection. Over such, the second death has no power for they shall be priests of God, and they shall reign with him a thousand years."

St. Maxmillian Kolbe's feast day is this day. He is one of those heavenly priests interceding for us because he was martyred on behalf of Christ's people in the war. It goes on now. We can take a look at verse 11, "Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it. From his presence earth and sky fled away and no place was found for them and I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne and the books were opened. And another book was opened which was the book of life and the dead were judged by what was written in the books by what they had done and the sea gave up the dead in it. Death and hades gave up the dead in them and all were judged by what they had done. Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death and if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Two classes of righteous, those who are martyred, they just went straight to heaven and sat on thrones and reigned with Christ. But there's a second group, isn't there? Those that did not participate in the first resurrection of the righteous martyrs, but they did have their names written in the book of life; so when the white throne, the great white throne of judgment occurs, they are delivered from hades. They participate in what you could call the second resurrection, not the second death and afterwards death and hades are swallowed up in the lake of fire, and then you've got pure hell and pure heaven and no more intermediate place or state at the end of time.

Now you might say, "Well, John is not arguing these things. He's not demonstrating the existence of this third place." That's right. I acknowledge that point, but he is assuming it. What's so remarkable is that he doesn't feel any need to argue it. He seems to think this can be assumed. They are not so righteous as to lay down their lives. They didn't embrace the cross so fully that they died as martyrs and persevered through all the pain and suffering.

 

[Benedicta00]

Limbo was convenniantly erased from the books a while ago. Give it another decade and Purgatory will go the same route.

Its just another scare tactic....

Seeing how Limbo means the place is undefined, I have no idea what you are talking about; it has been removed from the books?

What has been removed is using the word limbo, because it was misleading some of the faithful to think limbo is a place and not that the place is undefined.

And your darn right, it's a scare tactic, it's supposed to scare you, the hell out of you, but I can see such tactics don’t work that well on you, too bad.

 

[Benedicta00]

Purification is not a scare tactic...nor does the Church try to instill the fear of God into you through the doctrine of Purgatory...

I don't consider being purified by God something to be scared about personally.

Christian,

We do want to scare the hell out of people, literally, that's why we tell them the truth.

 

[MariaRegina]

Christian,

We do want to scare the hell out of people, literally, that's why we tell them the truth.

Dear Michelle:

Remember the adage: "To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

This kind of fear is not dreadful fear, but loving awe of the presence of God.

There is another kind of fear which is infantile - the fear of punishment.

The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church wants people to come to the truth. Only those who truly love God and their neighbors (including our enemies) can enter heaven. Only those who are willing to forgive, will have their sins forgiven. Those who have a servile fear of God and only go to Mass or Divine Liturgy just to escape Hell, may be in for a rude awakening when they die. They may cry, "Lord, Lord," but Christ may say to them. "I know you not."

It was Martin Luther who suffered from this servile fear. This led to his break with Catholicism. He wanted assurance of salvation because he feared that he was going to hell. That is why Martin Luther came up with his erroneous non-biblical teaching: "faith alone saves."

The Church teaches that while God is merciful, He is also the Just Judge. God became Man, so He intimately knows our human condition.

Revelation also talks about the saints who persevere to the end. This is all God wants: our faithful love and trust in Him in spite of all the wrongs we see around us. The saints focus on God and His merciful love for sinners.

We are all called to be saints who respond in love to God's call.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son and Word of the Living God, have mercy on us and save us.

Lovingly yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

 

[Silvio Dante]

Limbo, we were told, was the place dead babies went to if they were unbaptised. Such a cruel and unusual teaching was gladly deleted from the Church's books a few years back.

As will Purgatory in the future....

 

[BAChristian]

Christian,

We do want to scare the hell out of people, literally, that's why we tell them the truth.

Shelb, the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not state, anywhere, about a fire that's supposed to scare anyone -- rather it talks about a cleansing fire.

Just for fun, let's do some cut 'n' paste magic here:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the d-mned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

[size=-1]As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606[/size]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

[size=-1]Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

[/size]
A cleansing fire, in a spiritual sense, is not anything to be frightened about...

There's no suffering for anyone going to heaven, so to think that the state of purification is a state of suffering is nothing more than a man-made concoction. People may think it's suffering because they hear, "fire", but that doesn't mean that's what Christ was trying to convey when he talks about being baptized in fire...

When we're called upon to pray for the dead, I don't understand it to be a prayer that our God will ease their suffering, rather, we pray that our God will grant them mercy for any venial sins they may have...

If the Church does indeed have a doctrine on a fire, for those going to heaven, that's supposed to scare the heck out of you, and if Sacred Tradition and the Church Fathers talk about a state of purification that does this same thing, then I'd be happy to read it and change my views...

 

[BAChristian]

As will Purgatory in the future....

I humbly disagree.

 

[MariaRegina]

Shelb, the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not state, anywhere, about a fire that's supposed to scare anyone -- rather it talks about a cleansing fire.
...

A cleansing fire, in a spiritual sense, is not anything to be frightened about...

There's no suffering for anyone going to heaven, so to think that the state of purification is a state of suffering is nothing more than a man-made concoction. People may think it's suffering because they hear, "fire", but that doesn't mean that's what Christ was trying to convey when he talks about being baptized in fire...

When we're called upon to pray for the dead, I don't understand it to be a prayer that our God will ease their suffering, rather, we pray that our God will grant them mercy for any venial sins they may have...

If the Church does indeed have a doctrine on a fire, for those going to heaven, that's supposed to scare the heck out of you, and if Sacred Tradition and the Church Fathers talk about a state of purification that does this same thing, then I'd be happy to read it and change my views...

---

Great post BA! We all need purification either in this life or the next.
---

Dear Silvio,

Even St. John wrote that if someone says that he is without sin, he is a liar. Do you think you are sinless? If you cannot admit that you are a sinner, then you are a liar, according to St. John the Evangelist. However, if you do admit that you are a sinner, then you need purification. We all do. So join the human race.

Take your pick:
(1) Enjoy your life here and then suffer the purifying fire or hell fire in the next life. That's taking a big gamble.
(2) You can repent now and enjoy heaven in the next life.

The choice is yours. God bless and protect you.

Yours truly in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Benedicta00]

Christian,

I know that, I was being a little mellow dramatic, trying to move silvo in his thinking and just trying to show the silliness of his comment.

 

[BAChristian]

Christian,

I know that, I was being a little mellow dramatic, trying to move silvo in his thinking and just trying to show the silliness of his comment.

Oh...

 

[jukesk9]

Limbo, we were told, was the place dead babies went to if they were unbaptised. Such a cruel and unusual teaching was gladly deleted from the Church's books a few years back.

As will Purgatory in the future....

A. Limbo was never taught by the Church. There were a few theologians in the Middle Ages who toyed with this thought but it was never endorsed nor taught by the Church.

B. Stating such false statements are rule violations of this forum. Please refrain from posting such in the future. Thank you.

 

[Credo]

Limbo, we were told, was the place dead babies went to if they were unbaptised. Such a cruel and unusual teaching was gladly deleted from the Church's books a few years back.

As will Purgatory in the future....

Limbo was never an infallibly defined teaching of the Church that was binding upon all its members. It was a theological theory, an idea that was tossed around, but I think that idea has been abandoned.

Purgatory, quite the contrary, is an infallibly defined teaching of the Church, and this cannot be abandoned, as the Church speaks for Christ and Christ doesn't change.

Hate to disappoint you, but Purgatory will not be going away in the future. I take that back, it will go away when this world has come to an end and all purging is completed.

 

[Wolseley]

Limbo was convenniantly erased from the books a while ago. Give it another decade and Purgatory will go the same route.

Limbo, we were told, was the place dead babies went to if they were unbaptised. Such a cruel and unusual teaching was gladly deleted from the Church's books a few years back.

As will Purgatory in the future....

Others have already corrected your viewpoint on this, Silvio, but I'll add my two cents.

Statements like this display your complete lack of knowledge concerning Catholic teaching.

Purgatory is part of the Deposit of the Faith, meaning it is an infallible, divinely-inspired revelation, which cannot be abandoned, deleted, dismissed, or done away with.

Limbo, on the other hand, was merely a theological concept which was formulated by the Medieval Scholastics, based on a narrow, legalistic interpretation of the Sacrament of Baptism. It was never infallible, nor was it ever formally defined, meaning it never became a dogma. It could be, and was, abandoned.

You're trying to equate a divinely-inspired segment of the Deposit of the Faith with an undefined and obsolete theological concept that was tabled years ago.

Apples and oranges.

My advice is to brush up on your theology before you make more statements like you did above and embarrass yourself further.

 

[Benedicta00]

Limbo, we were told, was the place dead babies went to if they were unbaptised. Such a cruel and unusual teaching was gladly deleted from the Church's books a few years back.

Limbo is not a place, it was never taught as a place, when one uses “limbo” they mean, we do not know the state of this soul and the Church’s official teaching is that we don’t know the state of a baby soul if he is not baptized. We don’t say they are saved or ******, we say Christ was silent on the issue so we say you can believe and have hope that God is merciful to them because they have committed no evil but you can not claim that this is the Church’s official teaching because the Church recognizes that she simply does not know.

As will Purgatory in the future....

Dream on. Limbo and purgatory are not even closely related.

 

[Silvio Dante]

Talk about wrapping yourselves up in Theological knots. The Jesuits will never be forgotton with some of you around. So where do dead unbaptised babies go to then....?

 

[MariaRegina]

Talk about wrapping yourselves up in Theological knots. The Jesuits will never be forgotton with some of you around. So where do dead unbaptised babies go to then....?

Have you lost a child lately? Why are you so concerned? We don't know the mysterious Ways of God. All we can do is leave our little ones in God's loving care.

I had two miscarriages. God granted me a vision of my first miscarried child: Xenia-Maria twelve years after she died. She was so beautiful with red hair, slight freckles on her 12-year old nose and a beatific smile. Since then I don't worry, but trust in God's loving kindness.

Hope this helps.

Remember to pray for the faithful departed.

 

[BAChristian]

Talk about wrapping yourselves up in Theological knots. The Jesuits will never be forgotton with some of you around. So where do dead unbaptised babies go to then....?

C'mon dude...they go to heaven...that's a given bro...

 

[Silvio Dante]

Have you lost a child lately? Why are you so concerned? We don't know the mysterious Ways of God. All we can do is leave our little ones in God's loving care.

I had two miscarriages. God granted me a vision of my first miscarried child: Xenia-Maria twelve years after she died. She was so beautiful with red hair, slight freckles on her 12-year old nose and a beatific smile. Since then I don't worry, but trust in God's loving kindness.

Hope this helps.

Remember to pray for the faithful departed.

Sorry. I didn't mean to disrespect you or anyone else who may have lost a baby. Luckily I haven't.

I will shut up now....