Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Well, I would say - No, it is not the "focus" of the faith - the question is the source - or the Source - of the faith. The source - or the Source - determines its focus and its substance (or its Substance). There is only one God. Apart from Him can be misunderstandings, innocent errors, outright stubborn errors, or even idolatries.
The Source of faith itself ("believing") is divine grace, the gift of God. The "content" of faith (what we believe) for a ("faithful") Catholic, is perfectly aligned and coherent with the Faith of the whole Church. We believe in Christ, and therefore we believe that His Church is true.What is the Source of your faith? In my personal interactions with Catholics most would say that God, of course, is the Source, but is mediated through the Church such that the doctrinal content for my friends never varies from anything the Catholic Church teaches.
The Source of faith itself ("believing") is divine grace, the gift of God. The "content" of faith (what we believe) for a ("faithful") Catholic, is perfectly aligned and coherent with the Faith of the whole Church. We believe in Christ, and therefore we believe that His Church is true.
Of course, that is precisely the response of a faithful Catholic. The problem, however, is that in the Catholic world the "whole Church" consists only of the Roman Catholic Church and ignores non-Catholic branches of Christianity.
Jesus created one and only one Church; He prayed that that Church be one. Denominations are the creations of men. The only important question about "church(es) is this: Which is the true Church?
He promised, "Lo I am with you until the close of the age." The age has not yet closed, so the answer to the question is, the first, original Church is the true Church, and the only true Church. So the answer is found by history.
For my part, I had trouble accepting the historical answer, because I did not accept the theology of the Catholic Church. It took me time, but every question that I had, became resolved. The Catholic Church is the true Church.
So what states exist in the afterlife, judging from Scripture? Yes, Heaven and Hell.
Oh yes - they are apostolic in origin, and lineage - their sacraments are valid, thus efficacious, they are rightly called "a Church". But they deviated from the true faith on a few points - maybe because, historically, of the intertwining of the sacred and the secular in their part of the world, Church and State, around the times leading to "the Great Schism" when the separation became fixed. The West was also greatly challenged in that same area, but the West confronted it differently and survived.Did you consider the historical data of Eastern Orthodoxy in their claims to be THE CHURCH?
That seems to me to be quite a leap. The statement itself is not a prediction but an admonition, advice, or a way of pointing to the ideal. And if it were taken to be a clear reference to some place, in the afterlife, where perfection is to be obtained, why isn't that Heaven? And even if we conclude that there must be some transitional, reorientation kind of state of being, why immediately conclude that it's the very Medieval guess, with all it's specifics, that one church out of all the churches that exist, made in the 1400s? Even the Eastern Orthodox, who can claim antiquity and tradition with "the best of 'em" don't believe in Purgatory.For the question, can purification be completed on earth? In Matt. 5:48.... Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Now (and I hope you would agree) to be "perfect" this purification, if not obtained on earth, must be obtained elsewhere. So I had to ask myself....It surely can't be in heaven for to be in heaven everything is perfect, right? And as far as hell....... well if you are there, forget about being perfected, aint going to happen. So where else could it be?....... Purgatory.
That doesn't mean that there WILL be forgiveness in the next. It clearly says that there WON'T BE.For the question, is there forgiveness after death, in heaven or hell? In Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.”
For space and time constraints, I won't comment on the remaining questions I posted on #91 But will of asked. There are many "No-Purgatory"/ "sola scripturists" beleivers that will disagree with me saying..... "You still didn't show where the word "purgatory" is in the bible. And to that I will respond. neither is the word Trinity, Bible, Incarnation, ect. but as Christians, we do beleive in them, even though not directly expressed.
Remember also that Purgatory is not a place of forgiveness, but of punishment for sins. Indeed, as the RCC describes Purgatory, it exists in order to punish souls for sins committed and already forgiven! The punishment is supposedly for you having committed them in the first place. So it cannot be a place for forgiveness.. Not that and also meet the definition of Purgatory.
.
You just agreed that it's for punishment. It cannot be made better by saying that the souls in Purgatory deserved it. And remember that it is taught by the church that you will wind up there to be punished for sins that ALREADY HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN.You wrote,
"Remember also that Purgatory is not a place of forgiveness, but of punishment for sins. Indeed, as the RCC describes Purgatory, it exists in order to punish souls for sins committed and already forgiven! The punishment is supposedly for you having committed them in the first place. So it cannot be a place for forgiveness.. Not that and also meet the definition of Purgatory."
"Punishment" for persons who are in a living relationship with God (what the Church calls "the state of grace") is always remedial - not terminal. Therefore purgatory is "a place for forgiveness".
Nope. Rationalizations and weak analogies abound, but Purgatory is to be believed if God has revealed it to his people. We cannot go by the "why not?" proof of Purgatory I hear so often or the "If I were God, I'd do X, so he probably does that, too" approach.Think in terms of a loving parent.
You just agreed that it's for punishment. It cannot be made better by saying that the souls in Purgatory deserved it. And remember that it is taught by the church that you will wind up there to be punished for sins that ALREADY HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN.
Nope. Rationalizations and weak analogies abound, but Purgatory is to be believed if God has revealed it to his people. We cannot go by the "why not?" proof of Purgatory I hear so often or the "If I were God, I'd do X, so he probably does that, too" approach.
Very well. I find it strange to make this concept be so important when it's based upon very scant Biblical information, whereas the references to salvation (or damnation) in the way you say "non-Catholics" understand things are very numerous.Your criticisms sound very strange to me. I think the strangeness has to do with the understanding of salvation itself, among non-Catholics. The Catholic Church believes and teaches that, finally, salvation means not only satisfaction of justice (forgiveness of sin) - in an external, forensic sense - it means the reception of a new heart and a right spirit: holiness, and readiness for eternal fellowship with God, and all His holy ones in heaven.
How do we know that to be so? I think that once we have the mysteries of the God opened up to us and the scales fall from our eyes, beginning at the judgment following death, we most likely will cease to have such Earthly impulses and thoughts. We will be freed from all of that....love for some act that is sinful. Pick one that seems reasonable to you. Now this man can receive forgiveness for the sins he has committed - all of them - but in his heart can remain the attraction to, that is, the love - the desire - for this sin. This love for this sinful act is disordered, the love for it in his heart (actually, his soul) is a disorder. He has been forgiven the sinful actions that this love led him to on earth, but in his soul there possibly (and probably) remains this love even after his death.
You have speculated and hypothesized all through this exchange. There is nothing in this latter part about how things might be in Purgatory that is anything but a personal theory. You cannot "prove" the existence of a Purgatory by coming up with a scenario that might logically take place. Or not. There are a dozen others that any of us could come up with, relying only upon that which seems logical.So there it is, if you can hear it. If you don't want to, of course it is your choice
Very well. I find it strange to make this concept be so important when it's based upon very scant Biblical information, whereas the references to salvation (or damnation) in the way you say "non-Catholics" understand things are very numerous.
However, the question of whether there IS a Purgatory according to your view of salvation remains, and as I pointed out in the previous post, the definition of Purgatory--as given by the only church that believes in it--conflicts with your own theory as previously given to me.
The only thing that will "get it" is........We can return to discussing the evidence (or lack of same) for Purgatory when you're ready. In the meantime, "My church says so" isn't going to get it.
Oh yes - they are apostolic in origin, and lineage - their sacraments are valid, thus efficacious, they are rightly called "a Church". But they deviated from the true faith on a few points - maybe because, historically, of the intertwining of the sacred and the secular in their part of the world, Church and State, around the times leading to "the Great Schism" when the separation became fixed. The West was also greatly challenged in that same area, but the West confronted it differently and survived.
That is odd. Both the West and the East confronted matters differently and both have survived. Some would say that one has survived better than the other, but that depends on which metrics one chooses to apply. If survival is the chief criterion for determining and history is the secondary criterion, perhaps you ought to be Hindu. Those folks have not only survived, but have been around way longer than Christians.
So, because the Eastern Orthodox Churches do not recognize your Pope as Lord and Head of the Church, you can dismiss them as having deviated from the "true faith". You might find this odd, but they would level the inverse argument against you and your denomination.
Sounds good. At least we reached some resolution before breaking off the discussion.The only thing that will "get it" is........
..... ready?.....
.... is holy faith.
"Prove it" is a mental game. I'll move on.
Sounds good. At least we reached some resolution before breaking off the discussion.
Not surprisingly, the attempt to prove that Purgatory exists--which we both set out to do--resulted in showing that it's a Medieval fable turned into a doctrine, and by one church only.
You, however, want to believe it anyway, largely because your church insists upon it, and will put the best face possible on your decision...by calling it an act of "faith."
I would be very cautious about demeaning faith - as you have here...
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?