Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[bbbbbbb]

I know that the Catholic Church is the Church, others must speak for themselves.

This seems to me to be a slightly modified view of what you expressed previously -

"The Church in my thinking is best expressed by the Catholic Church."

In any event, how does "the Church" speak? I listed six options in my last post. I would like your understanding as to which, if any, is the means by which "the Church" speaks.

Thank you.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This seems to me to be a slightly modified view of what you expressed previously -

"The Church in my thinking is best expressed by the Catholic Church."

In any event, how does "the Church" speak? I listed six options in my last post. I would like your understanding as to which, if any, is the means by which "the Church" speaks.

Thank you.

Churches speak through documents, sometimes, and through homilies sometimes, and in conversations between a bishop and the faithful, and between the faithful and the world, etcetera. But when asking about dogma and doctrine then documents sanctioned by the hierarchy are the normal means.

 

[Valletta]

This seems to me to be a slightly modified view of what you expressed previously -

"The Church in my thinking is best expressed by the Catholic Church."

In any event, how does "the Church" speak? I listed six options in my last post. I would like your understanding as to which, if any, is the means by which "the Church" speaks.

Thank you.

“If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hates. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world. Look for the Church that is hated by the world, as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church which is accused of being behind the times, as Our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because he called Himself the Truth. Look for the Church which amid the confusion of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly, it is other-worldly. Since it is other-worldly, it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. ... the Catholic Church is the only Church existing today which goes back to the time of Christ. History is so very clear on this point, it is curious how many miss its obviousness...”​

― Fulton J. Sheen

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This seems to me to be a slightly modified view of what you expressed previously -

"The Church in my thinking is best expressed by the Catholic Church."

In any event, how does "the Church" speak? I listed six options in my last post. I would like your understanding as to which, if any, is the means by which "the Church" speaks.

Thank you.

Oh, one more thing, it seems important, the Catholic Church documents what she believes and teaches. No one will find it hard to discover what the Catholic Church teaches. Documents abound. Try a Catechism of the Catholic Church when you have something you are wondering about.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Churches speak through documents, sometimes, and through homilies sometimes, and in conversations between a bishop and the faithful, and between the faithful and the world, etcetera. But when asking about dogma and doctrine then documents sanctioned by the hierarchy are the normal means.

That is exquisitely vague. I suppose my Catholic friend is hearing "the Church" speak in every homily by his decidedly unorthodox priest.

How do you determine what is actual Catholic truth when you come up against various contradictions where "the Church" has emphatically spoken?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That is exquisitely vague. I suppose my Catholic friend is hearing "the Church" speak in every homily by his decidedly unorthodox priest.

How do you determine what is actual Catholic truth when you come up against various contradictions where "the Church" has emphatically spoken?

I think it is a fair reply to a very vague question. Nevertheless, the reply is accurate. And I added, in a follow up post, the following:

Oh, one more thing, it seems important, the Catholic Church documents what she believes and teaches. No one will find it hard to discover what the Catholic Church teaches. Documents abound. Try a Catechism of the Catholic Church when you have something you are wondering about.​

 

[prodromos]

“If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hates. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world. Look for the Church that is hated by the world, as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church which is accused of being behind the times, as Our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because he called Himself the Truth. Look for the Church which amid the confusion of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly, it is other-worldly. Since it is other-worldly, it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. ... the Catholic Church is the only Church existing today which goes back to the time of Christ. History is so very clear on this point, it is curious how many miss its obviousness...”​

― Fulton J. Sheen

Then he should have become Orthodox. The world has tried to wipe out the Orthodox Church multiple times.
Plus, the Catholic Church is not the only Church existing today which goes back to the time of Christ. Curious how Fulton J. Sheen missed that.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

the Catholic Church is not the only Church existing today which goes back to the time of Christ. Curious how Fulton J. Sheen missed that.

Agreed it is curious; but in his time a very large majority of the USA public may not have known of any of the Orthodox churches, so to bring the matter up would have been both pastorally bad and an educational task of significant proportions. Besides, when he was preaching the hierarchy of the Catholic Church was inclined to think of Orthodoxy as schismatic. I am not saying that such is the case now, at least not for many of the bishops it is not so.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think it is a fair reply to a very vague question. Nevertheless, the reply is accurate. And I added, in a follow up post, the following:

Oh, one more thing, it seems important, the Catholic Church documents what she believes and teaches. No one will find it hard to discover what the Catholic Church teaches. Documents abound. Try a Catechism of the Catholic Church when you have something you are wondering about.​

I did not think my question was vague. I provided six specific means by which many in your denomination perceive "the Church" to be speaking. You chose not to respond to any of the six, but, rather, said that "the Church" speaks (authoritively) in a vast array, such that I suggested to you that it would be accurate, according to your response, to believe that my Catholic friend's priest is speaking for "the Church" in making many very unorthodox statements in his homilies. BTW, he has caused such distress in the church that a group of parishioners drove across the state of Wisconsin to petition the bishop to move the priest elsewhere.

I actually have read the CCC many times and have discovered that, although it is an interesting document, it is frequently expressly vague. For example, it does not spell out any dogmas that must be believed by Catholics in order to be saved, other than the four Marian dogmas proclaimed in 1950. It is also extremely vague concerning Purgatory. It is also markedly vague concerning which sins are mortal and which are venial. The net result is a laity in the RCC which, although perceiving themselves to be devout and knowledgeable Catholics, cannot agree with each other on many essential matters.

This is not a matter just within the laity, either. As you know, recently an American cardinal was removed from the Vatican because of his very vocal criticism of the Pope. Also, there is the German synod of bishops which is promoting changes to Catholic doctrines regarding divorce and homosexuality. And, that, my friend, is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

For example, it does not spell out any dogmas that must be believed by Catholics in order to be saved

What led you to write this? Exactly what beliefs do you regard as absolutely essential for your salvation?

 

[bbbbbbb]

What led you to write this? Exactly what beliefs do you regard as absolutely essential for your salvation?

What led me to write this? My observations after reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If I am mistaken, please direct me to the location(s) within the CCC where a list of dogmas is given. At the point the only dogmas of the RCC of which I am aware are the four Marian dogmas proclaimed ex cathedra in 1950.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

At the point the only dogmas of the RCC of which I am aware are the four Marian dogmas proclaimed ex cathedra in 1950.

There's the Dogma of the Blessed Trinity.
The dogma of the incarnation of the Lord, Jesus Christ.
The dogma of scripture.
The dogma of the Church.

Of course, I do not intend to list every dogma here, it is easily discovered on the Vatican web site.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There's the Dogma of the Blessed Trinity.
The dogma of the incarnation of the Lord, Jesus Christ.
The dogma of scripture.
The dogma of the Church.

Of course, I do not intend to list every dogma here, it is easily discovered on the Vatican web site.

That begs my question. Where is the list of dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church enumerated and defined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It seems to me that, of all possible sources, the CCC ought to be the most reliable.

However, I ran across this handy website which lists 255 dogmas of the Catholic Church - https://cc.catechismclass.com/files/pdf/The_255_Dogmas_of_the_Catholic_Church.pdf Unfortunately, none of them are indexed to the CCC, so I can only put my faith in the website. Do you think that this website is "the Church" speaking?

Then, there is this website - Dogma of the Catholic Church which groups dogmas into thematic categories with a grand total of 252 of them. Curiously, although there is a fairly close interrelationship between the two websites, they are not completely identical to each other. Again, no sources are given as to where the author derived his list of dogmas.

You might wish to peruse this Wikipedia article - Dogma in the Catholic Church - Wikipedia Although it covers its topic fairly well, it fails to spell out which teachings are actually dogmatic, unlike the previous websites. In fact, it muddies the water considerably by denying that Papal Bulls and other Papal pronouncements are, or could be, dogmatic in nature. Even the proceedings of Church Councils are not necessarily dogmatic, it seems.

In any event, if you accept the 255 or 252 "dogmas" listed in the websites I still would appreciate knowing how these were determined and why only four occur in the CCC as being actual dogmas. Would you be interested in discussing the list of 255?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That begs my question. Where is the list of dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church enumerated and defined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It seems to me that, of all possible sources, the CCC ought to be the most reliable.

While the CCC is very reliable it is not infallible, for infallible dogma look to the documents produced by Church Councils and the Ex Cathedra proclamations of the Popes.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Where is the list of dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church enumerated

You can click this link for a list, I am not sure if it is complete, I am not sure why you'd want a complete list.

Dogma of the Catholic Church

Dogma of the Catholic Church

www.catholicbridge.com

 

[bbbbbbb]

While the CCC is very reliable it is not infallible, for infallible dogma look to the documents produced by Church Councils and the Ex Cathedra proclamations of the Popes.

The problem, as I have previously stated, is that only four dogmas have been pronounced ex cathedra by the Popes, and that was in 1950. Even the doctrine of papal infallibility itself did not happen until 1871. Prior to that it was impossible for any Pope to make an ex cathedra statement.

As for church councils, as I have also previously stated, the current status of Catholic doctrine is that various things from Church Councils such as Trent are still active but others are seriously downplayed or even ignored. None of these doctrines have officially been declared to be dogmas, although it is quite evident that various doctrines are now view as being dogmatic in nature.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You can click this link for a list, I am not sure if it is complete, I am not sure why you'd want a complete list.

Dogma of the Catholic Church

Dogma of the Catholic Church

www.catholicbridge.com

Apparently you did not read my earlier post in which I provided two websites which purport to list the dogmas of the Catholic Church. You have sent me the link to the second website which I provided. That website lists 252 dogmas, whereas the other website lists 255 dogmas. The problem is not the difference in number nor discrepancies between the lists, but the fact that neither website provides a scintilla of information as to how and when the Catholic Church determined that these were dogmas and not just doctrinal musings.

In any event, I am willing to discuss the dogmas of your preferred website individually if you are interested in doing so.

Thank you.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Apparently you did not read my earlier post in which I provided two websites which purport to list the dogmas of the Catholic Church. You have sent me the link to the second website which I provided. That website lists 252 dogmas, whereas the other website lists 255 dogmas. The problem is not the difference in number nor discrepancies between the lists, but the fact that neither website provides a scintilla of information as to how and when the Catholic Church determined that these were dogmas and not just doctrinal musings.

In any event, I am willing to discuss the dogmas of your preferred website individually if you are interested in doing so.

Thank you.

No, I think I'll pass on an interminable correspondence.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The problem, as I have previously stated, is that only four dogmas have been pronounced ex cathedra by the Popes, and that was in 1950. Even the doctrine of papal infallibility itself did not happen until 1871. Prior to that it was impossible for any Pope to make an ex cathedra statement.

As for church councils, as I have also previously stated, the current status of Catholic doctrine is that various things from Church Councils such as Trent are still active but others are seriously downplayed or even ignored. None of these doctrines have officially been declared to be dogmas, although it is quite evident that various doctrines are now view as being dogmatic in nature.

These problems are not with what the Vatican web site says, are they?

 

[bbbbbbb]

These problems are not with what the Vatican web site says, are they?

The Vatican website fails to explain what actually constitutes a dogma versus any old common doctrine.

In case you didn't read it, here is what says in the very fine print - "Note that the Vatican has no official list of Dogmas, probably for many reasons, one of which, that Dogmas can be very complicated, and placing them in a few words, could become legalistic, and also give an incomplete view of the Dogmas." The bottom line seems to be that nobody, not even in the Vatican, actually knows what is dogmatic doctrine and what is not.

It is a similar thing with mortal and venial sins. What were mortal sins in the not-so-recent as well as distant past are now considered to be venial sins and vice verse.