proving evolution as just a "theory"

[pitabread]

It always points to similarities.

No, it's not "similarities". It's patterns. Specifically patterns we would expect to observe if life has changed via an evolutionary process and shared common ancestry.

 

[rjs330]

No, it's not "similarities". It's patterns. Specifically patterns we would expect to observe if life has changed via an evolutionary process and shared common ancestry.

It's similarities. Because you believe in evolution you see it as patterns showing evolution. It actually shows common design. Just like buildings or cars or anything else. There are patterns or similarities in all designs in order to make the thing function for best performance. That's exactly what God did in creation.

 

[pitabread]

It's similarities. Because you believe in evolution you see it as patterns showing evolution.

No, it's not strictly similarities, it really is patterns.

For example, take fish versus whales. At a superficial level, they might appear similar; similar body types streamlined for moving through water.

Yet, the underlying morphology and genetics are highly different. When you compare things like underlying skeletal structure to functional morphology to genetics to developmental biology, it points to dramatically different origins for each respective group of organisms.

For example, dolphins have olfactory genes yet completely lack an olfactory system. They live in the water, yet still need to breath surface air. They begin to develop hindlimbs during early embryological stages which then get 'switched off' later in development.

It's these types of things that point to an ancestral origins from terrestrial organisms, not special creation for living in the water.

It actually shows common design.

We've been over this already. You haven't been able to actually demonstrate what "common design" is supposed to be, nor construct a framework in which to explain what you observe.

"Common design" is just a bumper sticker slogan.

There are patterns or similarities in all designs in order to make the thing function for best performance. That's exactly what God did in creation.

So why did God create dolphins with olfactory genes but lacking an olfactory system? Why would God create dolphins to be completely aquatic yet lack the ability to breath underwater, but fish have that ability? Why would God create dolphins to start developing hindlimbs as embryos only to have the same development turn off and the hindlimbs re-absorbed?

Can your "common design" explain any of this?

 

[Speedwell]

Sometimes you just got to call snakes and vipers what they are when they come into your house selling their garbage.

But apparently you don’t see any reason evolutionists need to be respectful considering you might find 10 posts by them in this entire thread where they didn’t insult someone, to which you don’t seem to object to.

I'm not talking "respectful." I'm not talking about chatroom banter. I'm talking about real world bulling and harassment. I'm talking about things like setting dogs on JW canvassers resulting in injuries that the sheriff won't take a report about because it is his pastor who is encouraging it.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Sometimes you just got to call snakes and vipers what they are when they come into your house selling their garbage.

But apparently you don’t see any reason evolutionists need to be respectful considering you might find 10 posts by them in this entire thread where they didn’t insult someone, to which you don’t seem to object to.

And on what basis do you think you're entitled to such "respect"?

 

[xianghua]

The sentence before that:

"One 1987 estimate found that "700 scientists ... (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) ... give credence to creation-science..."

That is about 0.14% of 'U.S. earth and life scientists'.

not sure:

How Many Creationists in Science?


"As for 700, I speculate that it was chosen as the number of members of the Creation Research Society, which requires its voting members to have earned a “postgraduate degree in a recognized area of science.” Its membership hovers around 700, according to the arch-creationist Henry M. Morris’s The Long War Against God"

 

[ruthiesea]

"Goddidit" is not an explanation for the diversity of life any more than it's an explanation for the weather.

However, nothing in the Theory of Evolution, or any science, denies that G-d did it. In fact, nothing in science denies the existence of G-d.

Our religion teaches us what G-d wants of us; Science is how we study and learn about His universe. When the religious try to disprove science using religion or when scientists (you listening Dawkins?) try to deny the existence of G-d using science, both are wrong.

 

[xianghua]

Can your "common design" explain any of this?

if i will show an explanation without a common descent, you will agree that this isnt evidence for a common desent?

For example, dolphins have olfactory genes yet completely lack an olfactory system.

so you predict that any dolphin\whale cant smell?

 

[pitabread]

if i will show an explanation without a common descent, you will agree that this isnt evidence for a common desent?

You can't and you won't.

so you predict that any dolphin\whale cant smell?

No, that is not what I am predicting. I'm not even sure why you would suggest that based on what I wrote.

 

[xianghua]

You can't and you won't.

who said?

No, that is not what I am predicting. I'm not even sure why you would suggest that based on what I wrote.

you said it here:

"dolphins have olfactory genes yet completely lack an olfactory system."

so a whale\dolphin can smell or not?

 

[rjs330]

One of the most distinctive characteristics of creationists is the tendency to make things up about what other people believe. With people like you it's merely amusing. Unfortunately, it is also the basis of much meanness and hostility in others.

What did I make up?

 

[rjs330]

Whereas, if we remove evolution, God becomes one option out of dozens...



You mean Odin, right?



Christians who deny Odin can hardly blame the schools, educational programs, scientific articles, etc., for their "ignorance."

Nor can you, for that matter.

Thank you for making my point. Well done.

 

[Astrophile]

I've been saying the exact same thing. Evolution is the ONLY real option if God is removed. The piles of "evidence" really are nothing more than man trying to figure out how all that is came to be without God.

Universal gravitation is the ONLY real explanation for the movements of the planets if the angels pushing the planets round their orbits are removed. The piles of "evidence" for universal gravitation are nothing more than man trying to figure out how the planets can move without angels.

 

[pitabread]

who said?

We've had these exchanges before. Last time I asked you to explain something according to the "creation model" or "common design", you went 'round in circles for weeks and explained nothing.

So you'll forgive me if I don't think you are going to bring anything new to the table.

you said it here:

"dolphins have olfactory genes yet completely lack an olfactory system."

so a whale\dolphin can smell or not?

Why are you asking about whales? I didn't mention whales at all.

 

[expos4ever]

So why did God create dolphins with olfactory genes but lacking an olfactory system? Why would God create dolphins to be completely aquatic yet lack the ability to breath underwater, but fish have that ability? Why would God create dolphins to start developing hindlimbs as embryos only to have the same development turn off and the hindlimbs re-absorbed?

Can your "common design" explain any of this?

I think you raise a key point. All I understand about evolution is the basic two-pronged framework: random mutations and (non-random) natural selection.

In any event, as you (and others) point out, evolution has "kluges" in the sense that organisms manifest obvious flaws and inefficiencies that a perfectly "designed" organism would not.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Thank you for making my point. Well done.

Always willing to bring the word of Odin to those who obviously need to hear it.

 

[xianghua]

Why are you asking about whales? I didn't mention whales at all.

since whale and dolphin shared a common descent according to evolution both should not be able to smell. and if you cant make a prediction base on your model then its not a scientific explanation.

 

[expos4ever]

When the religious try to disprove science using religion or when scientists (you listening Dawkins?) try to deny the existence of G-d using science, both are wrong.

I think it's not quite this simple. To the extent that people believe in a God who created the world 6000 years ago, or who heals you if you pray, I think the findings of science do indeed challenge this particular model of God. I do not foreclose the possiblity that God does heal, but clearly the frequency with which this happens is violently out of whack with the claims (not to mention the demonstrated chicanery of some so-called healers).

I think there is indeed a way to tease science and "faith" apart so that the two can be embraced without contradiction. But I think one needs to be really careful and thoughtful about how one goes about doing so.

 

[xianghua]

I think you raise a key point. All I understand about evolution is the basic two-pronged framework: random mutations and (non-random) natural selection.

actually those limbs may be a vestigial fins. so it doesnt prove any evolution rather then a degeneration.

 

[pitabread]

since whale and dolphin shared a common descent according to evolution both should not be able to smell.

Not necessarily, unless we assume that the common ancestor of whales and dolphins also lacked the ability to smell. But we have no reason to assume that.