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proving evolution as just a "theory"

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DogmaHunter

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The pattern we see is one of common design.

"common design" does not result in a nested hierarchy.

I submit ALL manufactured goods by any and all brands/companies as evidence.
Not a single one falls into a nested hierarchy.

In context of evolution, a nested hierarchy is the only possible outcome.

So... in other words... the pattern we observe in life is exactly what we expect if evolution is accurate. And if creation is accurate, it is the exact patter that we would not expect.

All living things are made of common design and screams intelligent design.

Nope. If an engineer at sony would build a productline with a nested hierarchy, the dude would be fired on the ground of being incompetent, wasteful and inneficient.

The design of life is ineficient and wasteful, if it was done on purpose.
 
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DogmaHunter

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That would prove evolution because that is evolution from a common ancestor.

If a species evolves into something completely different, instead of a sub-species, then evolution theory is falsified.

It seems you have no idea how evolution works.
If birds produce non-birds, then evolution theory is false.
 
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DogmaHunter

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No moving goal posts here. Show me a creature where that happened. Someone already beat you to the punch by saying it didn't.

Because evolution doesn't work that way. Not because evolution is false.
You are arguing a strawman.

It's like arguing that gravity isn't real, because a hammer floats in the ISS.
 
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DogmaHunter

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So we haven't and are not observing the process even now. That's what I am saying the only reason you can make the claim that it happens is because it supposedly takes so many years. It's kind of difficult to show something is in error when it takes so long to happen no one can say it didn't.

We observe evolution all the time in small scales.
Obviously, we can't observe a process that takes multiple life times. And we don't need to either.

Consider the orbit of Pluto. We know exactly how long it takes for that space rock to complete an orbit. It takes LONGER for Pluto to complete 1 orbit, then we have known about its existance.

We don't need to observe the entire process, in order to infer how it works, how long it takes, etc.

Just like we didn't need to directly observe atoms, to develop atomic theory. We were splitting atoms and building nukes, before we had the means to directly observe atoms.
 
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Jimmy D

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Thats my point. You are unable to differentiate between members of the same species, and simply subspecies within that species. Oh I agree they are all the same Kind. I say one mated with another and a different one came into existence.

No, your point was that all T rex fossils are the same and showed no evidence of evolution.

You ignore the actual empirical observation and believe one evolved into another. Even if no transitory ones exist, and all are fully formed from the first one found to the last one found.....

I assume that you've studied the fossil record from the cretacious period in some depth if you feel confident enough to declare the findings of mainstream paleontology wrong.

Maybe you could point out what is wrong with Brusatte and Carr's model of Tyrannosaur evolution.

Parsimony-tree-1024x609.png


The phylogeny and evolutionary history of tyrannosauroid dinosaurs

In comparing our parsimony and Bayesian phylogenies, the most striking finding is that the two methods produce extremely similar consensus trees. The overall structure of both trees is identical: a basal clade of proceratosaurids, an intermediate grade of small-to-mid-sized tyrannosauroids, and a derived clade of very large apex predators. Most of the small details are identical as well: the fairly large Sinotyrannus and Yutyrannus group with proceratosaurids instead of the large-bodied tyrannosaurids; Dilong, Eotyrannus, and Xiongguanlong are successively closer outgroups to Tyrannosauridae; Bistahieversor and Appalachiosaurus are non-tyrannosaurids; tyrannosaurids are divided into Albertosaurinae and Tyrannosaurinae subclades; and the long-snouted alioramins are basal tyrannosaurines. These results are encouraging, as they show that the major outline of tyrannosauroid phylogeny is recovered by multiple methods that differ substantially in their starting assumptions, at least when these methods are applied to the same dataset.

It seems that your assertion that T rex arrived "fully formed" and that no "transitory ones" exist is wrong, why do you ignore the avialable evidence?

You mean your excuse for letting them ignore the scientific definitions?

No, why would anyone use the fact that outdated views of the universe have been discarded due to new data being available as an exuse for "ignoring scientific defintions". You aren't making sense now.

Every one of them was wrong.....

LOL, every scientific paper written about Coelacanths is wrong? That's a bold statement. I actually asked what specifically was wrong, please cite the peer reviewed papers and show how they are mistaken. You're starting to sound like Ken Ham at this point.

Oh I say just as we observe the Afro-Asian come about. Just as we observe the Chinook come about. Its you that's refusing to make your theory follow empirical evidence...

That doesn't answer where the African and Asian came from, you know, the question I asked.

Why wouldnt it be found after fish? Water creatures were created before crawling things..... crawling things before dinosaurs. I fail to see how this fact points to evolution being your lack of transitional forms?

Yeah, the first tetrapods capable of leaving the water just happened to be specially "created" during the Devonian, and they just happen to be incredible similar to the lobe finned fishes of the time but with relatively minor adaptations. Could this creator only manage adaptations of previous creatures, because that's what it looks like.

We'll ignore the obvious elephant in the room for the moment shall we..... That is "fowls" preceding "creeping things".

Oh I agree every single one of them is found fully formed

No "half formed" specimins, who'd of thunk it?

Its not the facts that are in dispute, but the arbitrary classification of the same Kind as separate species, by the same people that watch finches interbreed before their eyes, yet cant follow the definitions they wrote. That's what is dismissed, the PR hype. Its you that dismiss the fact that every one is fully formed, that just like dogs all those T=Rex are merely different breeds or subspecies, not separate species....

You have yet to demonstrate how percieved problems with the taxonomic system affect the Theory of Evolution.

No, where they left the Ark and dispersed, we agree.

LOL, and you accuse me of ignoring scientific evidence.

Then quit ignoring it and pretending it happened by mutation far, far in the past since you know how it works. Dont let the truth offend you, its just the facts. And dont try to change this into a racial discussion. Its not my fault they want to call the races races instead of subpecies, like they should by their own definition.

I'm not accusing you of racism or trying to change it into a discussion of race.... I'm accusing you of insulting my intelligence by repeating that crap.... I am quite aware of what happens when members of two separate races "breed".
 
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DogmaHunter

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Why would a designer place 203,000 endogenous retroviruses in humans and chimpanzees in such a way as to mimic common descent?
Why would a designer place a broken GULO gene in all Haplorhine primates including humans?
Why would a designer place a broken gene pathway for hind limb development in whales and dolphins?
Why would a designer place broken VTG genes for egg yolk sac development in therian (marsupial and placental) mammals?

Evolution explains all of these things, "common design" does not.

I'm guessing because "god is mysterious". Ow, oeps, sorry.... "the designer is mysterious".
 
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Jimmy D

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That's a straight up lie. Plenty of people have done so, including myself.
I could easily do it again, but what would be the point?



All that is baseless superstitious belief that you can't support in any way or form.

You are correct, here are a couple of examples of times Joshua has been shown beneficial mutations. The first one comes from his hero, Francis Collins, the second comes from this thread where he made the same claims.

...........................


"Infact, each of us has about one hundred mutations that arose for the first time in us. Each of these mutations represents a tiny experiment.

Sometimes mutations are beneficial. They might make the organism more attractive to the opposite sex, making it easier to find mates and reproduce - or they might lay eggs that are less fragile or better camouflaged."

link

..........................


Here is an example of a beneficial mutation you requested:

http://news.psu.edu/story/299166/20...-gene-across-global-populations-reveal-shared

SLC24A5 - Wikipedia

...........................

That's just the first two examples I found, I know you've posted some as well.

You are more than justified in your use of rather strong language.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Plenty of people have done so
Then show me one, present your case. I have never seen anyone talk so much and say so little. You remind me of my son when he does not know the answer on a test. He will just put a bunch of nonsense down and sometimes they give him credit for it. That don't fly with me. You need to come up with some evidence. Just being negative is more a sign of depression than actually providing an answer for the issues on the table.
 
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joshua 1 9

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And yet, you enjoy the benefits from science, every hour of every day of your life.
Science is neither good or evil. We enjoy the benefit of making the right choices in life with what we have to work with. Some people think that to deny God is a good choice, but the evidence indicates that to deny God is a bad choice. We can choose to use Science for good or we can use Science for death and destruction.

upload_2017-10-20_6-17-41.jpeg
 
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Jimmy D

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Then show me one, present your case. I have never seen anyone talk so much and say so little. You remind me of my son when he does not know the answer on a test. He will just put a bunch of nonsense down and sometimes they give him credit for it. That don't fly with me. You need to come up with some evidence. Just being negative is more a sign of depression than actually providing an answer for the issues on the table.

It's literally in the last post before you typed this. :notlistening:
 
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bhsmte

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Science is neither good or evil. We enjoy the benefit of making the right choices in life with what we have to work with. Some people think that to deny God is a good choice, but the evidence indicates that to deny God is a bad choice. We can choose to use Science for good or we can use Science for death and destruction.

View attachment 210511

You enjoy the benefits of science every hour of every day. End of story.
 
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joshua 1 9

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He has a tendency to selectively ignore, what contradicts his beliefs.
His post was responding to someone else. I do not have a problem with "evolution" I have a issue with the mutation theory. Look at founder effect for example. That is exactly what we have with Adam and Eve. Problem is when the theory of evolution offers proof that the Bible is 100% accurate and true then the infidels and scoffers what to reject Science and History and all the overwhelming evidence that Science and History gives us to substantiate how accurate and reliable the Bible really is. God made a choice to become a part of His Creation: "So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." He made mankind in His own image. For theistic evolutionists the method He used for that was evolution.
 
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joshua 1 9

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You enjoy the benefits of science every hour of every day. End of story.
I also suffer the agony every hour of every day. Science butchered my perfectly healthy cats and now I have to deal with what is left from their meatball surgery. This is a fallen world we live in and all of creation longs for the day of redemption. All of God's Creation will be redeemed and restored. You refuse to answer for the hypocrisy of denying all the overwhelming evidence that Science provides to substantiate that the Bible is 100% accurate and true. The Bible is 100% reliable to guide us and show us the way to live our daily lives. Science does not deny the Bible the way the skeptics, scoffers and infidels deny the Bible. Science wholeheartedly endorses and supports the Bible. Esp the moral teaching we find in our Bible. It is Science that will stand as a witness and a testimony as to what is true. If you truly embraced Science then you would also embrace the Bible.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Then show me one, present your case.

Tibetan people have a unique gene sequence, not found in other populations, which allows for more red blood cell production which in turn allows them to live at high altitudes without health problems.

You can go into ignore/deny mode now.

I have never seen anyone talk so much and say so little

Says the guy who makes post after post after post and is specialised in moving goalposts and writing around the points being raised.


You need to come up with some evidence

You need to learn the basics of biology first. And perhaps also learn about the nature of evidence. So I suggest you buy a nice book on biology, written for the layman.

I can recommend "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Prof Dawkins.

Just being negative is more a sign of depression than actually providing an answer for the issues on the table.

Ow yes, sure... why not. When cornered, use an ad hominim.
 
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joshua 1 9

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No, we dont know a god is this or that. You are simply making a claim and failing to support it with anything but opinion.
My claim is supported by science and history. Which you admit that you reject because the truth does not support your hidden agenda. Be careful how you judge others because it tells us about you. When you judge others you really only judge yourself.
 
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joshua 1 9

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It's just basic understanding of the difference between the phenotype versus the genotype of an organism. I mean, you *do* know the difference, don't you?
The genotype is the set of genes in our DNA which is responsible for a particular trait. The phenotype is the physical expression, or characteristics, of that trait.
 
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DogmaHunter

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His post was responding to someone else. I do not have a problem with "evolution" I have a issue with the mutation theory.

And again with same nonsense that was corrected not more then a day or two ago in this very thread.

Mutations factually happen. There is no such thing as "mutation theory". We observe them to happen. We KNOW they happen. It happens in EVERY newborn.

Look at founder effect for example. That is exactly what we have with Adam and Eve. Problem is when the theory of evolution offers proof that the Bible is 100% accurate and true then the infidels and scoffers what to reject Science and History and all the overwhelming evidence that Science and History gives us to substantiate how accurate and reliable the Bible really is.

The theory of evolution is about one very specific aspect of reality: the origins of species; the process by which variation and diversity is introduced into populations.

To say that evolution shows the bible to be "100% accurate" is ridiculous to the highest degree.

If you limit the bible to just those parts where it talks about the origins of creatures (genesis) then one thing is painfully clear: it does NOT match with reality. Not even remotely. Not even with a big imagination. The only way to marry both is by saying that while the bible writes "white", it really means "black".

Or simply by saying that it is a metaphorical story used to impart a lesson on ethics or morals or whatever, and it should not be understand as an actual account of how living things come about.

Sophisticated theists are smart enough to go for that last option. One of them, is your hero Francis Collins. Another is the pope. And with him, most catholics.

God made a choice to become a part of His Creation: "So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." He made mankind in His own image. For theistic evolutionists the method He used for that was evolution.

In evolution, sexual reproduction evolved from asexual reproduction. Which means that there was a time where there were no females or males.
 
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