Jesse Dornfeld

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No issue. . .just tried to make it more simple.

My position on Providence is that it is God's purposeful control of things. This includes His provision for us, but is not limited to that.
 
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Halbhh

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This is more or less exactly what I am talking about when I talk about Free Will. Our Free Will is when we might be able to have an a spirit able to turn and go in a new direction. That's almost precisely the way I am using Free Will here. The difference in our perspectives, I think, is that I don't think this is a thing God would not be able to "predict".

So let's start there. Why do you think God would not be able to predict our new Spiritual choice if that's what you believe?

I realized I'd left out something really crucial to how I understand all of this --

Update: This will help! -- I don't think to always include it, because it's so central to everything that I just assume it, and that everyone is assuming it:
--> God can and will and has and does intervene to change outcomes! To cause something to go in a different way!
(that's so crucial to all of this)

(also, this has endless examples in scripture: it's all throughout the bible)

Also: Of course I think God can predict anything/everything that He has chosen to be predictable, by His design, no matter how complex or overwhelmingly far sighted it would require.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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I realized I'd left out something really crucial to how I understand all of this --

Update: This will help! -- I don't think to always include it, because it's so central to everything that I just assume it, and that everyone is assuming it:
--> God can and will and has and does intervene to change outcomes! To cause something to go in a different way!
(that's so crucial to all of this)

Also: Of course I think God can predict anything/everything that He has chosen to be predictable, by His design, no matter how complex or overwhelmingly far sighted it would require.

Great! I think we are getting somewhere in this.

I would just say where God intervenes is in our Free Will, that being our Spiritual choices we make. So it is not as though God is a passenger in the Spiritual choices we make, but that He is intimately involved in our Spiritual choices, but that this doesn't mean that we are not choosing something either. The qualification for our Spiritual choice, is that it is New information to us. So because everything falls in God's providence, He chooses what information, New or not, where we enact our Free Will and our Will.

And I admit that my view is in some sense a paradox. But that is just how I read the Bible as it pertains to our choices and God's Providence. It's more or less the model I have come up with the mesh the two. You may have done that differently, so let's talk about the differences.

Finally, I realize that what I said in the OP doesn't explicitly SAY a lot of the implications of what I mean when I use a term like Free Will and such.
 
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@Halbhh,

Why would God have foreknowledge of things that are not of Spiritual importance, but in things that do have a Spiritual importance he would take a hands off approach? From my view, everything that happens is due to God's providence, not just the "mundane" things, but Spiritual things as well. In fact, in my view, God is MORE involved in things with a Spiritual importance because God would care about those things more. But at the same time, things of a Spiritual importance are the very things we are most "Free" in.

I don't see how we can get away from the idea that God is intimately involved in our Spiritual choices. There are TONS of passages about how God ordains who is going to be saved and who is not. Passages like Ephesians 1:3-14, Romans 8, are two examples of just how involved God is in the Spiritual choices we make.
 
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aiki

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2. We then process this Information of our Senses. This is our Ideas. They are how we ask questions like what, who, where, when, how, and why about what our Senses are observing of Information.

How does the sensory information you take in form up as an idea in your mind? By what means does this occur? Why would ideas form at all in response to the sensory data that comes to you via your senses?

4. So when we observe something New from our Senses which our Ideas then process, filtering through our Conclusions and back to Ideas and to our Conclusions so on, that is when we enact our Free Will

In what sense is what you describe here "free"? It sounds as though what you call "free will" is actually just the inevitable effect of a chain of other, prior things. This is a sort of determinism, which denies free will.

5. And all the Information we observe with our Senses is part of God's Providence.

So, if you observed a man raping a child, it would be God's Providence that you would be observing?
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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How does the sensory information you take in form up as an idea in your mind? By what means does this occur? Why would ideas form at all in response to the sensory data that comes to you via your senses?

There are different ways our brain processes information.

If you want to know more about my view, here's a video I made about this theory:


In what sense is what you describe here "free"? It sounds as though what you call "free will" is actually just the inevitable effect of a chain of other, prior things. This is a sort of determinism, which denies free will.

I mean "Free" in the sense that we "choose" between more than one option.

So, if you observed a man raping a child, it would be God's Providence that you would be observing?

This is getting into the differences between God's Commands, and God's Decrees. In the death of Christ, God's Commands were broken, but his Decrees were also fulfilled. This is actually a central theme of the Gospel. If you don't understand that Christ was killed by the means of sin, but that it was decreed by God, then you don't have a firm grasp of how the Gospel has been historically understood.

See this video for an explanation of this from a Biblical perspective.

 
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Halbhh

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@Halbhh,

Why would God have foreknowledge of things that are not of Spiritual importance, but in things that do have a Spiritual importance he would take a hands off approach? From my view, everything that happens is due to God's providence, not just the "mundane" things, but Spiritual things as well. In fact, in my view, God is MORE involved in things with a Spiritual importance because God would care about those things more. But at the same time, things of a Spiritual importance are the very things we are most "Free" in.

I don't see how we can get away from the idea that God is intimately involved in our Spiritual choices. There are TONS of passages about how God ordains who is going to be saved and who is not. Passages like Ephesians 1:3-14, Romans 8, are two examples of just how involved God is in the Spiritual choices we make.
We agree then I see. I didn't mean to word anything in a way to give any impression that might be taken to imagine God doesn't help us. It seems like I've posted about 200 times in the last year that God helps us. Or maybe 300 times. I've often posted it several times per day.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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We agree then I see. I didn't mean to word anything in a way to give any impression that might be taken to imagine God doesn't help us. It seems like I've posted about 200 times in the last year that God helps us. Or maybe 300 times. I've often posted it several times per day.

There was a huge matter of confusion I was having regarding your posts. It's entirely possible that from your PoV you were saying things that made sense from that PoV but that I was just not really understanding the way you were saying it.

In any case, I am glad we were able to come to an agreement about this. It's possible the way I said things in the OP are not a good way of saying it even though I must have spent at least an hour and a half trying to word things correctly. I digress.
 
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I'm not concerned with any "debunking" video of Calvinism unless it comes explicitly from Scripture. So, if you can summarize the points made in the video that is based on scripture, that would be great.
 
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aiki

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I'm not concerned with any "debunking" video of Calvinism unless it comes explicitly from Scripture. So, if you can summarize the points made in the video that is based on scripture, that would be great.

All of the videos at www.soteriology101.com are based in Scripture. To summarize them all would be impossible (there are hundreds of them). And they don't merely challenge the wrong-headed ideas of Calvinism but offer a much more biblical and reasonable alternative to Reformed thinking.
 
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bling

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Correct.



Because what we do with our Free Will is the same thing as what God Wills. It is not one or the other with my perspective, but both at the same time. God presents us with New information that we decide on, but, we have to decide what we do with that information. What we decide is what God wills for us. So it is not as though we either choose something or God Wills something, but that these are two things of the same coin. It is admittedly a paradox in the same way the Trinity is a paradox. That's just how I read the Bible. God gives us a choice, but he is also in control of everything at every moment.



The problem with your view is that you have no basis at all on why some choose God and some don't. Some do and some don't based on their Free Will and that's all the deeper the thought process goes. It's basically just because some people choose red over blue. No rhyme or reason, just based on personal preference.
Not at all what I said.

I am not saying any nonbelieving sinner can make a noble, righteous, honorable, glorious, holy and worthy choice to choose God. I am saying the sinner can for selfish (unrighteous) reasons be willing to accept from their hated God undeserved charity.

Think of it like with the prodigal son choosing to repent (turn toward home). The father (God) allows the son to get himself into deep trouble, but the trouble he got himself into is fully deserved and the result of his own bad choices (beginning with virtually telling his father: “I wish you were dead so I can have my inheritance.”). The son is not returning home out of Love for the father or for any righteous reason, but to just possible obtain a job he fully does not deserve for the selfish reason of wanting to survive a little longer and not continue under the starving tragic situation he is in. He does have enough faith in his father to believe his father’s Love might be great enough to grant him what he does not deserve.

The decision the sinner makes is not arbitrary like preferring red over blue, but comes at those times a person “comes to their senses”. The choice is really as obvious as “is there a god or is there not a god”, which means you have to be foolish not to make the right choice, a willingness to go on hopelessly fighting, but most refuse God’s help. To refuse you can continue to be macho, self-reliant, maintain a false pride, show your willingness to take the punishment you fully deserve, and not give up. To humbly accept pure charity, means you are a wimp, you gave up and you are a soldier of satan who surrendered to his enemy while God is still your hated enemy.

A soldier in a losing battle against his hated enemy has to make a real thought-out decision to give up and surrender to his hated enemy, since he fully deserves nothing from that enemy other then to be tortured to death for previous war crimes. That is not a simple choice between red and blue.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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All of the videos at www.soteriology101.com are based in Scripture. To summarize them all would be impossible (there are hundreds of them). And they don't merely challenge the wrong-headed ideas of Calvinism but offer a much more biblical and reasonable alternative to Reformed thinking.

I'm not asking you to summarize them all, just the one that was something like, "The 5 points that lead me away from Calvinism." I'll even provide a video of my own that I think shows Calvinism is true. Here:
 
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Not at all what I said.

I am not saying any nonbelieving sinner can make a noble, righteous, honorable, glorious, holy and worthy choice to choose God. I am saying the sinner can for selfish (unrighteous) reasons be willing to accept from their hated God undeserved charity.

Think of it like with the prodigal son choosing to repent (turn toward home). The father (God) allows the son to get himself into deep trouble, but the trouble he got himself into is fully deserved and the result of his own bad choices (beginning with virtually telling his father: “I wish you were dead so I can have my inheritance.”). The son is not returning home out of Love for the father or for any righteous reason, but to just possible obtain a job he fully does not deserve for the selfish reason of wanting to survive a little longer and not continue under the starving tragic situation he is in. He does have enough faith in his father to believe his father’s Love might be great enough to grant him what he does not deserve.

The decision the sinner makes is not arbitrary like preferring red over blue, but comes at those times a person “comes to their senses”. The choice is really as obvious as “is there a god or is there not a god”, which means you have to be foolish not to make the right choice, a willingness to go on hopelessly fighting, but most refuse God’s help. To refuse you can continue to be macho, self-reliant, maintain a false pride, show your willingness to take the punishment you fully deserve, and not give up. To humbly accept pure charity, means you are a wimp, you gave up and you are a soldier of satan who surrendered to his enemy while God is still your hated enemy.

A soldier in a losing battle against his hated enemy has to make a real thought-out decision to give up and surrender to his hated enemy, since he fully deserves nothing from that enemy other then to be tortured to death for previous war crimes. That is not a simple choice between red and blue.

That introduces all sorts of other problems like, "If the person is only submitting to God because he hates him, then he is unable to see God loves him." To the point, I don't think it is possible to submit to God without being humble.
 
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bling

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That introduces all sorts of other problems like, "If the person is only submitting to God because he hates him, then he is unable to see God loves him." To the point, I don't think it is possible to submit to God without being humble.
The soldier who surrenders in the heat of the battle is not doing it because he sees his enemy as Loving him. The surrendering soldier is hating his enemy all the time he is surrendering, but the soldier is being humbled by the experience and with surrendering he is willing to humbly accept his enemy’s undeserved charity. If the soldier’s enemy pours upon him unbelievable wonderful gifts for doing nothing, the soldier will after accepting those gifts of: full pardon, eternal life, an inheritance of a child of the King, Loving friends willing to die for him, a new loving family, a fellowship feast, the indwelling Holy Spirit, and so on, then the soldier has a really good reason to Love much. The submitting to God comes after the gifts are showered on the soldier.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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It strikes me as...odd that you want me to summarize Leighton Flowers's videos while you post John Piper videos. Should you not require of yourself the same things you require of me?

The video I tried to watch was THE reason why Leighton left Calvinism titled "the 5 points why I left Calvinism" THAT was the video I wanted to know the scripture verses behind them. I can go back and watch the video, but I don't want to watch a 30 minute video that is about certain points on why to leave Calvinism if there is no scripture behind the points.
 
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The soldier who surrenders in the heat of the battle is not doing it because he sees his enemy as Loving him. The surrendering soldier is hating his enemy all the time he is surrendering, but the soldier is being humbled by the experience and with surrendering he is willing to humbly accept his enemy’s undeserved charity. If the soldier’s enemy pours upon him unbelievable wonderful gifts for doing nothing, the soldier will after accepting those gifts of: full pardon, eternal life, an inheritance of a child of the King, Loving friends willing to die for him, a new loving family, a fellowship feast, the indwelling Holy Spirit, and so on, then the soldier has a really good reason to Love much. The submitting to God comes after the gifts are showered on the soldier.

But that is not how Christianity works.
 
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aiki

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The video I tried to watch was THE reason why Leighton left Calvinism titled "the 5 points why I left Calvinism" THAT was the video I wanted to know the scripture verses behind them. I can go back and watch the video, but I don't want to watch a 30 minute video that is about certain points on why to leave Calvinism if there is no scripture behind the points.

As I already pointed out, all of Leighton's contentions are scripturally-based. He is just as careful about God's word - more so than Piper in regards to soteriological matters, I think - as any high-level Bible exegete.

It seems you have a jaundiced eye when it comes to Leighton. Have you given his Provisionist perspective careful consideration?

I came out of the Calvinist TULIP doctrine after adhering to it for two decades. I know it very well but found that Provisionism mixed with Molinism provides a much better accounting of things soteriological than Reformed ideas do. How well do you actually understand Provisionism? Are you getting all your information on it from prejudiced sources? Or have you studied it carefully for yourself? Have you heard of Molinism? Do you know what it holds to concerning God's omniscience? Or, again, is all of your knowledge filtered through the prejudiced thinking of men like Piper, or MacArthur, Sproul or White?
 
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