Providence and Free Will

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I am making this thread because of this:

I enjoy such discussions. We could start a discussion in a PM or a new thread and discuss free will in more depth. If you have something you wrote, you could post it, or just pose some propositions or a question, and then tag me or PM me, so that I could join you in discussing it. If there is a certain post in particular you want me to read I will (I prefer reading over watching video as that's easier for me). It's getting late for tonight, so if you don't see me back soon, it will be tomorrow.

Feel free to look at that thread if you want.

Now, I can basically summarize my position on Free Will like this:
We have Free Will, but most of it has to do with coming across NEW information that we have to process based on God's Providence.

Now, our method for determining if we are going to enact our Free Will is as follows:

1. We observe Information from our 7 (not 5) Senses (see, hear, smell, taste, touch, temperature, and pressure) which are representative of the external world.
2. We then process this Information of our Senses. This is our Ideas. They are how we ask questions like what, who, where, when, how, and why about what our Senses are observing of Information.
3. We then act out our Will after we process our Ideas. This is our Conclusions. When we engage our Will we do this with our Senses and Ideas through our Conclusions. Sometimes we have to do more work with our Ideas from our Conclusions. I should note here that there are 2 (or more) "levels". The second level is when we have processed our Senses into Ideas about our Conclusions. So you can see that our Ideas are very important and act fluidly in that they can interact with both our Conclusions and Senses as it has to do with our Will.
4. So when we observe something New from our Senses which our Ideas then process, filtering through our Conclusions and back to Ideas and to our Conclusions so on, that is when we enact our Free Will - when we come across New information what to do with our Will.
5. And all the Information we observe with our Senses is part of God's Providence. So everything has a direct correlation with God's Providence. There is nothing New to God and this principle is found well put in Proverbs 16:9.

Some terms:
Senses - What Information we observe.
Ideas - How we process what Information we have from our Senses.
Conclusion - Acting out our Will after processing our Ideas.
Information - Anything we can observe.
Will - Acting as an agent based on what is observed.
Free Will - Acting out Will when there is an explicit decision to make.
New - Relating to unique or novel Information.
Providence - God's Will

 

[Halbhh]

The most interesting aspect of this to me is how you see God's Providence, as used in the process. What all do you mean by God's Providence? (taking into account we wouldn't know everything about it, but could know some things about it) To help communicate well, here's how I think of God's Providence normally: just a couple of basic ways I'll describe, and more being possible. And you might have more in mind than I think of: First, that God can and will provide for us according to Christ's description that if we are seeking first God's Kingdom and His righteousness -- ongoing -- then He will give to us all that we need of the basic necessities day to day. (Matthew chapter 6)
2nd, God's Providence can bring about larger things such as the founding of a nation, such as for instance Washington believed happened for America. Another example of God's Providence I think of is that He might bring a person a spouse that is best for them to grow spiritually, for instance, if they pray for such (or perhaps even if they don't!) Possibly God's Providence might work more often in more subtle ways, as it seems at times to me. Of course, these are not the only possibilities! What kinds of things do you mean by 'God's Providence', or what do you have in mind?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

The most interesting aspect of this to me is how you see God's Providence, as used in the process. What all do you mean by God's Providence? (taking into account we wouldn't know everything about it, but could know some things about it) To help communicate well, here's how I think of God's Providence normally: just a couple of basic ways I'll describe, and more being possible. And you might have more in mind than I think of: First, that God can and will provide for us according to Christ's description that if we are seeking first God's Kingdom and His righteousness -- ongoing -- then He will give to us all that we need of the basic necessities day to day. (Matthew chapter 6)
2nd, God's Providence can bring about larger things such as the founding of a nation, such as for instance Washington believed happened for America. Another example of God's Providence I think of is that He might bring a person a spouse that is best for them to grow spiritually, for instance, if they pray for such (or perhaps even if they don't!) Possibly God's Providence might work more often in more subtle ways, as it seems at times to me. Of course, these are not the only possibilities! What kinds of things do you mean by 'God's Providence', or what do you have in mind?

Glad you brought up the question!

I would define Providence the same way John Piper does in his book, simply titled, "Providence". It is defined something like, "The purposeful sovereignty of God in all things".

If you want to know how I see this personally, I would suggest reading this thread (for more of my thoughts on Free Will) or the sections under God's Determining, God's intimate involvement, and God's Sovereignty vs Free Will seen here.

 

[bling]

I am making this thread because of this:



Feel free to look at that thread if you want.

Now, I can basically summarize my position on Free Will like this:
We have Free Will, but most of it has to do with coming across NEW information that we have to process based on God's Providence.

Now, our method for determining if we are going to enact our Free Will is as follows:

1. We observe Information from our 7 (not 5) Senses (see, hear, smell, taste, touch, temperature, and pressure) which are representative of the external world.
2. We then process this Information of our Senses. This is our Ideas. They are how we ask questions like what, who, where, when, how, and why about what our Senses are observing of Information.
3. We then act out our Will after we process our Ideas. This is our Conclusions. When we engage our Will we do this with our Senses and Ideas through our Conclusions. Sometimes we have to do more work with our Ideas from our Conclusions. I should note here that there are 2 (or more) "levels". The second level is when we have processed our Senses into Ideas about our Conclusions. So you can see that our Ideas are very important and act fluidly in that they can interact with both our Conclusions and Senses as it has to do with our Will.
4. So when we observe something New from our Senses which our Ideas then process, filtering through our Conclusions and back to Ideas and to our Conclusions so on, that is when we enact our Free Will - when we come across New information what to do with our Will.
5. And all the Information we observe with our Senses is part of God's Providence. So everything has a direct correlation with God's Providence. There is nothing New to God and this principle is found well put in Proverbs 16:9.

Some terms:
Senses - What Information we observe.
Ideas - How we process what Information we have from our Senses.
Conclusion - Acting out our Will after processing our Ideas.
Information - Anything we can observe.
Will - Acting as an agent based on what is observed.
Free Will - Acting out Will when there is an explicit decision to make.
New - Relating to unique or novel Information.
Providence - God's Will

You are not addressing foreknowledge and free will.

You also seem to be saying when it comes to choosing acceptance or rejection of God's mercy/grace/Love/charity/forgiveness, God is setting some people up to accept and others are set p to reject?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

You are not addressing foreknowledge and free will.

I disagree. God's foreknowledge is that nothing is New to Him. Our Free Will is when we decide on New information.

You also seem to be saying when it comes to choosing acceptance or rejection of God's mercy/grace/Love/charity/forgiveness, God is setting some people up to accept and others are set p to reject?

Correct.

 

[bling]

I disagree. God's foreknowledge is that nothing is New to Him. Our Free Will is when we decide on New information.

When you say “Nothing is new to God” I was equating to: “Nothing surprises God since He has seen it all”, but you seem to be saying: “God knows everything in our future including all our choices”.

How are you getting around the fact: if God knows perfectly what future choices I will make in my future that choice cannot be a free will choice because I cannot choose to make a different choice then the choice God knows I made.

Correct.

I do not see God being at fault in any way for anyone being lost and God being very involved in each individual’s life. Those lost have of their own autonomous free will have repeatedly refused to accept God’s help (undeserved pure charity) to the point they would never accept God’s charity/Love. There are people who will never have to opportunity to make the free will choice to accept or reject God charity who will go to heaven without fulfilling their earthly objective and thus never have Godly type Love to be protected and preserved for eternity. These would include the unborn and babies who die.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

When you say “Nothing is new to God” I was equating to: “Nothing surprises God since He has seen it all”, but you seem to be saying: “God knows everything in our future including all our choices”.

Correct.

How are you getting around the fact: if God knows perfectly what future choices I will make in my future that choice cannot be a free will choice because I cannot choose to make a different choice then the choice God knows I made.

Because what we do with our Free Will is the same thing as what God Wills. It is not one or the other with my perspective, but both at the same time. God presents us with New information that we decide on, but, we have to decide what we do with that information. What we decide is what God wills for us. So it is not as though we either choose something or God Wills something, but that these are two things of the same coin. It is admittedly a paradox in the same way the Trinity is a paradox. That's just how I read the Bible. God gives us a choice, but he is also in control of everything at every moment.

I do not see God being at fault in any way for anyone being lost and God being very involved in each individual’s life. Those lost have of their own autonomous free will have repeatedly refused to accept God’s help (undeserved pure charity) to the point they would never accept God’s charity/Love. There are people who will never have to opportunity to make the free will choice to accept or reject God charity who will go to heaven without fulfilling their earthly objective and thus never have Godly type Love to be protected and preserved for eternity. These would include the unborn and babies who die.

The problem with your view is that you have no basis at all on why some choose God and some don't. Some do and some don't based on their Free Will and that's all the deeper the thought process goes. It's basically just because some people choose red over blue. No rhyme or reason, just based on personal preference.

 

[Halbhh]

@True Counterphobia, above Bling has a key insight. If God already knows all of our future choices, then those choices are set.

Fixed.

Then there would be no real freedom of choice, since those seeming choices would be predetermined, in that view.

Unalterable. (Free will would be mere illusion then, and we'd be akin to robots with rigid programming.)

But that would contradict scripture extensively, in that over and over God instructs us in choices.

Please have a look:

Matthew chapter 7 is full of such, but such are throughout the bible ---

Please read through this chapter:
Deuteronomy 28 ESV

"If" "then".... "But if".."then"...

(continues in next post)

 

[Halbhh]

But considering that God is all-seeing, and clearly and definitely does cause many things to happen by His own plans, He can definitely know ahead of time very key things that will happen, and that involve us and our fates, also.

So...what fits all of this? We are being somewhat speculative to make our guesses (I think), keeping in mind the reality:

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

(the reality: we cannot encompass God in our thinking/understanding, but can only know things He has revealed)

One guess that comes to my mind is that God could easily see what direction we are heading in any moment, and knows where that direction leads to, the outcome it would cause. And He can intervene at will, to change the situation, we know (as fact, not a guess on this part).

So...God might have made us in some way able to truly choose in a real way real choices, that are not predetermined (not fixed ahead of time) -- meaning we would be unpredictable in a long enough time period even to a computer with infinite calculation power and perfect full knowledge of us and all the Earth and all things. In other words, unpredictable in a true sense. That would have no effect at all on God being able to accomplish His will -- He would be able to, He is able to, intervene and change outcomes, according to His will, at any time, no matter what we do. So, it may be He made us truly unpredictable, by His design, for His purposes, such as in order that we might love in a real way (not like a robot).

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

@True Counterphobia, above Bling has a key insight. If God already knows all of our future choices, then those choices are set.

Fixed.

Then there would be no real freedom of choice, since those seeming choices would be predetermined, in that view.

Unalterable. (Free will would be mere illusion then, and we'd be akin to robots with rigid programming.)

But that would contradict scripture extensively, in that over and over God instructs us in choices.

Please have a look:

Matthew chapter 7 is full of such, but such are throughout the bible ---

Please read through this chapter:
Deuteronomy 28 ESV

"If" "then".... "But if".."then"...

(continues in next post)

The problem, I think, is that you've never looked into the issue of "If God knows the future, then I have no choice" because that is not the model that a lot of Arminians take with things. I'm not an Arminian, but I would rather someone be an Arminian than an Open Theist, which is what the view you are describing here is.

Here's an article on "If God knows the future, then I have no choice": How is it free will If God is all-knowing and He knows our future?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

But considering that God is all-seeing, and clearly and definitely does cause many things to happen by His own plans, He can definitely know ahead of time very key things that will happen, and that involve us and our fates, also.

So...what fits all of this? We are being somewhat speculative to make our guesses (I think), keeping in mind the reality:

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

(the reality: we cannot encompass God in our thinking/understanding, but can only know things He has revealed)

One guess that comes to my mind is that God could easily see what direction we are heading in any moment, and knows where that direction leads to, the outcome it would cause. And He can intervene at will, to change the situation, we know (as fact, not a guess on this part).

So...God might have made us in some way able to truly choose in a real way real choices, that are not predetermined (not fixed ahead of time) -- meaning we would be unpredictable in a long enough time period even to a computer with infinite calculation power and perfect full knowledge of us and all the Earth and all things. In other words, unpredictable in a true sense. That would have no effect at all on God being able to accomplish His will -- He would be able to, He is able to, intervene and change outcomes, according to His will, at any time, no matter what we do. So, it may be He made us truly unpredictable, by His design, for His purposes, such as in order that we might love in a real way (not like a robot).

The idea that we are "unpredictable" to God, doesn't mesh well with historic Christianity.

 

[Halbhh]

you've never looked into the issue of "If God knows the future, then I have no choice"

Oh man. I've not only looked into it many times, but have thought on it for over a decade, and so often considered to find out more, from scripture. This isn't a quick thought, or the idea from an hour once one day. Also, I do not fit into pigeonholes like "Arminian" or "Open Theist" (no matter how tempting it is to use clever pigeonholes), though no doubt you could find at least 1 or 2 things that seem to overlap, at least a initial impression.

The idea that we are "unpredictable" to God, doesn't mesh well with historic Christianity.

That would be because we are definitely predictable to God.

I don't write well enough I think. I don't emphasize the precise detail enough perhaps. I didn't say God doesn't foresee our direction. I thought at least I got that in a clear wording: He can see where we are going. (to suggest otherwise seems a serious accusation to make against me, but perhaps I'm overreacting) I wonder if it could be possible to consider what I said without assuming I'm this or that old idea, but something more distinct. I'm not saying there is nothing at all in common, but rather I've got more than just 5 notions from one old school. I may have 2 or 3 and disagree with 2, for instance. It's just not a good filter to use on me.

 

[Clare73]

Glad you brought up the question!

I would define Providence the same way John Piper does in his book, simply titled, "Providence". It is defined something like, "The purposeful sovereignty of God in all things".

If you want to know how I see this personally, I would suggest reading this thread (for more of my thoughts on Free Will) or the sections under God's Determining, God's intimate involvement, and God's Sovereignty vs Free Will seen here.

Providence is provision.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Oh man. I've not only looked into it many times, but have thought on it for over a decade, and so often considered to find out more, from scripture. This isn't a quick thought, or the idea from an hour once one day. Also, I do not fit into pigeonholes like "Arminian" or "Open Theist" (no matter how tempting it is to use clever pigeonholes), though no doubt you could find at least 1 or 2 things that seem to overlap, at least a initial impression.

That would be because we are definitely predictable to God.

I don't write well enough I think. I don't emphasize the precise detail enough perhaps. I didn't say God doesn't foresee our direction. I thought at least I got that in a clear wording: He can see where we are going. (to suggest otherwise seems a serious accusation to make against me, but perhaps I'm overreacting) I wonder if it could be possible to consider what I said without assuming I'm this or that old idea, but something more distinct. I'm not saying there is nothing at all in common, but rather I've got more than just 5 notions from one old school. I may have 2 or 3 and disagree with 2, for instance. It's just not a good filter to use on me.

The things is, you view seems to make God a weakling. God is in control, but he isn't Fully in control. He sees where we are going but doesn't actually know what we are going to do. That doesn't seem to be a very great God to me personally. It seems to be the same kind of God that the pagans worship.

Isaiah 46:8-10 “Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Providence is provision.

What's your issue with my definition?

 

[Halbhh]

The things is, you view seems to make God a weakling. God is in control, but he isn't Fully in control. He sees where we are going but doesn't actually know what we are going to do. That doesn't seem to be a very great God to me personally. It seems to be the same kind of God that the pagans worship.

Isaiah 46:8-10 “Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Ok, now you are just ascribing to me stuff I don't think at all.

That's from using ideas that there are just some odd number of schools of thought, and everyone falls into one or more of them.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Ok, now you are just ascribing to me stuff I don't think at all.

That's from using ideas that there are just some odd number of schools of thought, and everyone falls into one or more of them.

So you don't think God isn't fully in control? You don't think God just sees the direction we are going, but actually knows the choices we will make?

 

[Halbhh]

So you don't think God isn't fully in control? You don't think God just sees the direction we are going, but actually knows the choices we will make?

Edit: update to help make clear.

I hope you are asking in a real questioning way, without assuming you know what I think before I answer, and it seems maybe so. I'm not quite sure what you mean to ask in the first sentence (it can be hard sometimes to correctly understand how someone means a double negative).

I think God definitely does see (fully and perfectly and entirely in all ways) the direction we are going -- and also knows precisely where that leads to, the future destination of it.

Maybe if you paraphrase just this one part back to me, I'll feel sure you have correctly heard it.

Also, if we get that correctly heard, then it seems you also ask whether I think God can anticipate our choices. That's a much deeper question in a way, as it isn't clear whether God designed us, by His own choice, as having some real ability to choose, but it looks very much like He did to me. So, therefore, if you are still listening, I think God can see what choices we will make, but it might be (speculation) that there are some special moments when we might be able to have actual spirit -- that He gave us -- able to turn and go in a new direction. So, it's complex. I'm not sure this is some old school of thought of any kind, but I also would not be surprised if some theologian has arrived at it. It's not really important though, these guesses. Do you get that -- that such guesses aren't really important?

Update: This will help! -- I don't think to always include it, because it's so central to everything that I just assume it, and that everyone is assuming it:
--> God can and will and has and does intervene to change outcomes! To cause something to go in a different way!
(that's so crucial to all of this)

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

but it might be (speculation) that there are some special moments when we might be able to have actual spirit -- that He gave us -- able to turn and go in a new direction.

This is more or less exactly what I am talking about when I talk about Free Will. Our Free Will is when we might be able to have an a spirit able to turn and go in a new direction. That's almost precisely the way I am using Free Will here. The difference in our perspectives, I think, is that I don't think this is a thing God would not be able to "predict".

So let's start there. Why do you think God would not be able to predict our new Spiritual choice if that's what you believe?

 

[Clare73]

What's your issue with my definition?

No issue. . .just tried to make it more simple.