Prove that links exist

[FutureAndAHope]

The way it works is discovering that feathers predate flying birds. If you look at some of the evidence for non flying dinosaurs like Velociraptor and Zhenyuanlong you can see that they had feathers on their fore limbs.

If the species has wing like structures for some other reason and they habitually climb, jump through trees it's straight forward for very gradual changes from assisted falling, to gliding to true flying to be broken down into small beneficial steps.

The interesting thing is that each point along this chain is clearly demonstrable in different species in modern ecology.

Ok give me a link to it, and I will join you for a beer.

 

[Shemjaza]

Ok give me a link to it, and I will join you for a beer?

The wikipeda pages for Velociraptor and Zhenyuanlong have the evidence for these non-flying dinosaurs being feathered.

That shows that the wing structure was already present in the family prior to the development of birds and the bird-like Archaeopteryx.

The point of evolution is that individual changes just need to not be detrimental and they can spread through a population. An edge in using your arm feathers for gliding isn't essential to survival as a climber, but it's an advantage.

As an interesting modern example of this kind of adaptation, there's Chrysopelea, the flying snakes. Lots of snakes hunt in the trees, but some have another ability to mould their bodies to help climb or to glide when they hurl themselves out of the branches.

I found a video about flying snakes:

 

[Occams Barber]

What? How does evolution work then, it must not be a gradual change over time then. You have no interest in learing if you can't understand that picture. Where did the wing come from? Come on man.

Look at your hand. Imagine the fingers getting longer and longer. Imagine a membrane stretching between your fingers. You now have a basic wing not unlike a bat wing.

Feathers arose as a form of display and insulation in dinosaurs. Imagine the same dinosaur hand with the fingers extending slowly over time. This time the gap is filled with feathers. Having a few feathers in an extended hand/arm allows you to glide (a little clumsily). Gliding saves you from the nasty predators. As a result you have time to have more kids. Enough time and the kids who survive to have more kids who have more useful feathers (due to a mutation). Now the kids can (sort of) fly. The kids who fly best have more kids. Now we have a whole generation of feathered flying dinosaurs; aka, birds.

Curious Kids: How did some animals evolve wings to fly? (theconversation.com)

OB

 

[klutedavid]

Sort of right.

Thanks.

It wasn't whales that originally left the ocean. That critter was a fish like animal who crawled out of the ocean shallows some 400 million years ago and became the great grandaddy of us all including you and me and whales.

You said, 'a fish like animal'. So what was it?

You know that whatever the species, it had to breathe and develop limbs for walking. It's seems incredulous that a fish could do that. If you are conditioned into believing such an incredible tale, then I suppose you could believe anything. I put it in the too hard basket simply because I have no evidence that this event took place.

By 50 million years ago the fish critters had spread out and evolved into a range of land based animals including the early mammals. It was one of these mammals, possibly indohyus, which was the forerunner of the animal which eventually went back to the water and gradually evolved into whales.

What is this, Ripley's believe it or not. I want the name of the species involved, not speculative guesses. Either you know or you don't know.

It is a giant leap to progress from a fish into say a lizard, then an even bigger leap from a lizard into a mammal.

Evolution: Out Of The Sea - Scientific American Blog Network
Whales: From So Humble A Beginning… (nationalgeographic.com)
OB

Either you actually know something about these transitional species, or you know nothing at all.

Not very convincing.

 

[Skreeper]

What? How does evolution work then, it must not be a gradual change over time then. You have no interest in learing if you can't understand that picture. Where did the wing come from? Come on man.

OK boomer.

You want to learn? Go to school. Better yet, go to a university and get a proper education in biology.

 

[VirOptimus]

OK boomer.

You want to learn? Go to school. Better yet, go to a university and get a proper education in biology.

He isnt here to learn, just to preach.

 

[Jimmy D]

If evolution is true we must have visible, transitions between modern-day, and semi-modern species. Things that can be seen with the eyes.

The evolution of the modern horse fits the bill perfectly. I am aware that you have already said that you won’t accept it because of some silly excuse to with the varying size of dogs, that’s up to you, but if you think that the only morphological changes seen in the fossils are varying sizes I suggest that you educate yourself a bit more on the topic.

Incidentally, I don’t believe that the fossil record is the best evidence for evolution, but maybe you’ve got a better explanation for what it shows, because it matches exactly what we would expect to see if common descent were true.

There is no viable alternative explanation.

 

[Occams Barber]

You know that whatever the species, it had to breathe and develop limbs for walking. It's seems incredulous that a fish could do that. If you are conditioned into believing such an incredible tale, then I suppose you could believe anything. I put it in the too hard basket simply because I have no evidence that this event took place.

I used the term fish/animal to dumb it down enough so you might understand it. "Fish" and "animal" are not biological terms. The animal was something like Tiktaalik but would not readily fit into a modern categorisation.

So...something which looked biologically like a fish wandered into shallow water at the edge of the sea. Since there was no other creature there to complete it had free access to all the vegetation and little sea critters it could eat - fantastic. Over time fish/critters which could get closer to the shore had more access to food and (as a result) more kids. It turned out the fish/critters with stronger fins could lever themselves into shallow water = more food.

While the fish critters were slowly climbing out of the water a small change to gill structure allowed some of them to absorb oxygen directly from the air. No big deal - oxygen absorption from air is not that different to oxygen absorption from water - some animals (like pigs and rats and probably humans) can actually breathe through their anus. I'm currently trying to learn how to do this but with mixed results.

So with stubby little fin/legs, the latest generation could lever itself up and breathe out of water. They now had access to all the onshore edible goodies, no competition and no predators who could reach them.

The rest is evolutionary history.

What is this, Ripley's believe it or not. I want the name of the species involved, not speculative guesses. Either you know or you don't know.

In modern terms think of mud skippers. The actual beast was an early form of Tiktaalik.

It is a giant leap to progress from a fish into say a lizard, then an even bigger leap from a lizard into a mammal.

Not really. The big difference between a lizard and a fish is probably a bit more neck mobility. In fact there ain't much difference between a fish and a human if you think about it. Bi-lateral symmetry, similar set of internal organs, keratin coating (skin, scales, feathers, hair, fur - same stuff), eyes, a digestive system, oxygen breathing. Given a bit of thermal regulation, enough time and a bit of modification to the reproductive system and your basic fish critter shifts from fish to lizard to mammal to primate fairly easily.

So...that's Evolution 101 according to OB.

OB

 

[Joy]

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