Prove that God is good

[Albion]

OK - and what would you say if the overwhelming majority of people thought of God as evil?

Then that's their opinion. Mine is different. The point is that there is a way to go about deciding.

I guess my question is this: would you still define God as good even if he did something that the overwhelming, overwhelming majority of the planet thought of as evil?

This is not decided by what the overwhelming majority of the planet says. It only decides what it thinks about it. What's more, the "overwhelming majority" of the world's population hasn't made a decision based on the evidence I referred to before.

Not to seem to be equivocating on your question, however, my answer is "yes, I would."

Would you define God as good no matter what, or is their something he could do that would make you not define him as good?

I am not going to define God as either good or evil based upon one or several recorded actions or events. The issue, by its nature, is bigger and encompasses more than that.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

What would you say if someone asked you to prove that God is good?

I agree with what some others have said...answer depends on what is a good god.
God is not always what we consider good in the classic sense all the time...witness the passage below, but if we are aware and observant enough of His actions we see that God is good all the time...all this takes some maturity in the faith. This is why some weaken in the faith when troubles come.
Psalm 18:25-27:
To the faithful you show yourself faithful,
to the blameless you show yourself blameless,
to the pure you show yourself pure,
but to the crooked you show yourself shrewd.
You save the humble
but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.
Psalm 119:71-71:
It was good for me to be afflicted
so that I might learn your decrees.
The law from your mouth is more precious to me
than thousands of pieces of silver and gold.

So, God is a God of goodness and mercy showering countless blessings upon all so that we can acknowledge that God is indeed good. But, God is also a God of discipline and One who tests and tries the hearts of mankind by allowing them to receive hardship. It requires some maturity to accept that hardship is good. He only gives us so much as we can bear
(I Corinthians 10:13) however, so man is without excuse.
Romans 8:28:
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

 

[OzSpen]

What would you say if someone asked you to prove that God is good?

I would point to two things:

1. God's providence, his governance of the world through love and wisdom. See, 'What is divine providence?' (Got Questions?)
2. God's solution to the problem of evil in our world (salvation through Christ, John 3:16; 1 John 2:2).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Why must we of necessity assume God is good if God exists?

Would you prefer to assume God is an out of control monster?

 

[Razare]

When a person realizes they are not good, it proves something exists which knows good, otherwise a person could not know they are evil and know evil.

And that realization a person has that we are evil is also good, but often a person will fail to realize this is in fact the nature of good. This is because seeing God's good as a lost person is very much like staring a negative of a picture. You piece together good exists by the vacuum of it in your life and behavior.

The "Moral Law" is a key component of a proof of God's goodness. The problem is, men start out on the wrong side of the moral law, so we see the evil perspective.

Now some claim that God does not uphold his moral law, and is therefore not good. But you see, the problem with that is that person is still pointing at a moral law to be upheld, they just fail to believe their concept of God achieves it.

But in which case that person should abandon the God they believe, and turn to the true God who made the moral law that they believe in, and exalt that law, and that other concept of God as good.

When I was lost, I would only believe in a God who descended into hell himself to save the lost. Then when I became a Christian, I learned Jesus Christ had descended into hell to save the lost. Showing it from the Bible is a lot of work, but just to give a practical substantiation of this doctrine, the Eastern Orthdox has ancient pictures depicting Christ enter/leaving Sheol.

And so, by me exalting the God I believed in, not the one bartered to me by the world at large and false viewpoints on Christianity, I ended up at true Christianity, where God is good and not evil.

Certainly God is evil if you listen to many, many Christians out there. They will claim he is the author of sickness and desire we be ill, and they will call such things good. That God is evil, don't bother worshiping him, it's just worshiping at the feet of satan and calling it Christianity. Exalt what is good, and find the God who is the realization of that good, and one of two things will happen: 1) Your viewpoint on what is good is wrong, and you have to learn more. 2) You arrive at Christ.

But doing this will eliminate the notion that God is not good, which is what many Christians conclude, and many would rather go on believing God is evil than abandon their faith... I can't really blame them, but it would be better if they knew more so they could shake the bad thinking.

PS - Warning about doing what I said, you have to be able to determine good apart from what the world tells you. I have seen many Christians in this ditch of exalting what the world tells them is good, and then using that as a basis for scripture interpretation. It stunts their growth and leaves them in baby Christianity indefinitely, they'll never get past immature Christianity with that way of thinking.

 

[tulipbee]

Normally when God pushes the cart it goes forward. It it goes forward too fast, God will need to pull the cart. Both are done by God. Men goes forward or God pushes them. Either way God is in charge. Nothing happens without him.

 

[OzSpen]

I never suggested that this argument would be successful in winning over an agnostic or an atheist to believe in the goodness of God (or God, for that matter). In fact, my initial response to this question was that it's impossible to "prove" God's goodness.

It can't be done, but at the same time, simply offering the panacea of "eternal life" as "making up" for a lifetime of suffering is a bit disingenuous, IMO. Such doesn't actually deal with the "problem of evil" at all...it only pushes it off into speculation that can't possibly be established as true.

The goodness of God can be seen in providence - his goodness, love and wisdom in maintaining creation and the universe.

However, the ultimate convincing of the goodness of God comes from God's revelation in Scripture:

We know that God is not the creator of evil because God is the good God and not the evil God. He affirms this in verses such as,

• Psalm 25:8 (ESV), ‘Good and upright is the LORD; therefore he instructs sinners in the way’.
• Psalm 136:1 (ESV), ‘Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good’.
• Psalm 100:5 (ESV), ‘For the Lord is good; his steadfast love endures for ever, and his faithfulness to all generations’.
• Mark 10:18 (NIV), ‘“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone”‘.

On a practical level, why would God continue to put up with the cursing and resistance against him if he were not good and compassionate towards unbelievers, 'not wanting anyone to perish' (2 Peter 3:9 NIV)?

Oz

 

[Shadowprophet]

That's not really very helpful.

Someone may have suffered great tragedy in their lives and their question might be, "how do I know God is good when he's done this to me? Can you prove it to me?" They may be looking at all the suffering in the world and asking, "if God is good and loves us, why does he allow this?"
These are valid questions which many have asked, in fact I was once told that THE most common question that unbelievers ask is, "why does God allow suffering?" To take the attitude that they are lost if they are questioning the goodness of God and don't have much spiritual understanding, does not help them to understand, or answer the question.
Would Jesus have answered such a question by saying, "you are probably beyond help", and shaking the dust from his feet?

Fine, you leave me no choice. Here are my thoughts.

If someone can not even see that God who gave them life and the wisdom to understand, and even offered them forgiveness and love, and to boot it all, ever lasting life for those who would accept it. If someone can know those things of God and not see that he is Good. Then those people aren't very intelligent...

You believe I have lived to be thirty nine years old and never suffered greatly? If someone has to ask if God is Good. then that person is a lost soul.. I will not entertain the Devil in his little mind games, someone who is smart enough to get on the internet and join a forum and strike up a debate about God, Should already know the answer to this question. I don't like pretending to be stupid. I don't play that game. God says be as wise as a serpent and as gentle as Doves, This Dove, Can easily see a twisted idea for a debate. HOW DARE SOMEONE QUESTION IF GOD IS GOOD ON A CHRISTIAN FORUM! THEY AUGHT TO BE SMACKED.. Is that any more helpful?

 

[NightHawkeye]

What would you say if someone asked you to prove that God is good?

I would say instead that God is truth ...

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt: And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.​

 

[throughfiierytrial]

That's not really very helpful.

Someone may have suffered great tragedy in their lives and their question might be, "how do I know God is good when he's done this to me? Can you prove it to me?" They may be looking at all the suffering in the world and asking, "if God is good and loves us, why does he allow this?"
These are valid questions which many have asked, in fact I was once told that THE most common question that unbelievers ask is, "why does God allow suffering?" To take the attitude that they are lost if they are questioning the goodness of God and don't have much spiritual understanding, does not help them to understand, or answer the question.
Would Jesus have answered such a question by saying, "you are probably beyond help", and shaking the dust from his feet?

God's arm is not inadequate in reaching unbelievers. If they experience suffering on some level usually it is God allowing that trial so as to have the unbeliever to turn his thoughts to God and to seek Him. I Peter 1:6-7 tells us testings and trials happen, Philippians 1:29 tells us we will all suffer on some level for Christ, II Timothy 3:12 says all who seek to live a righteous life will be persecuted, Jesus Himself says...
John 15:19-21:
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me.

 

[Albion]

You believe I have lived to be thirty nine years old and never suffered greatly?

I'm going to save this one.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

The goodness of God can be seen in providence - his goodness, love and wisdom in maintaining creation and the universe.

However, the ultimate convincing of the goodness of God comes from God's revelation in Scripture:

We know that God is not the creator of evil because God is the good God and not the evil God. He affirms this in verses such as,

• Psalm 25:8 (ESV), ‘Good and upright is the LORD; therefore he instructs sinners in the way’.
• Psalm 136:1 (ESV), ‘Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good’.
• Psalm 100:5 (ESV), ‘For the Lord is good; his steadfast love endures for ever, and his faithfulness to all generations’.
• Mark 10:18 (NIV), ‘“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone”‘.

On a practical level, why would God continue to put up with the cursing and resistance against him if he were not good and compassionate towards unbelievers, 'not wanting anyone to perish' (2 Peter 3:9 NIV)?

Oz

Again, this misses the point of the OP. The OP asked what you would say if someone asked you to "prove" that God is good. Quoting Scriptures that claim that God is good is not proof. The proof they are asking for is illusory, for to prove the goodness of God would require that you can first prove the existence of God. If the person asking has already admitted the existence of God, then no further proof is required as it is a logical necessity to conclude that God is good (if one has already granted the existence of God).

 

[alexandriaisburning]

When a person realizes they are not good, it proves something exists which knows good, otherwise a person could not know they are evil and know evil.

This doesn't prove the existence of "goodness"; all that it demonstrates is that you have been socially conditioned to categorize behavior and circumstances according to a particular moral construct.

The "Moral Law" is a key component of a proof of God's goodness. The problem is, men start out on the wrong side of the moral law, so we see the evil perspective.

The moralizing of behavior has nothing to do with the goodness of God. Goodness is not a reality, object or abstract standard that exists external to God and to which God is bound (or even to which God aligns). God's goodness is inseparable from God's nature and very existence. So that which God does is what is good; God is not good because God does things which are good.

They will claim he is the author of sickness and desire we be ill, and they will call such things good.

But this is just a logical fallacy. Sickness in biological organisms is not a morally categorizable circumstance; it is merely a fact of biology. To be sick, or to die, is ultimately to occupy one of an infinite number of biological states that are possible within the contingency of the universe. But to assign moral value to any particular state is to completely misunderstand the nature of "good" and "evil".

 

[Shadowprophet]

I mean has no one really considered the title to this thread? Prove that God is Good. I mean. Can no one else see how the Op Used manipulation to bait people into this thread? Any Christian aught to know better then to question Gods Morality. The whole premise behind this thread is a work of the devil. To even question Gods Goodness, When God cant even stand Lies or sin, And to Use Gods name in such a way. The title alone approaches Slander Of God. I dislike this thread quite a bit actually.

 

[Albion]

In that case, I'd recommend avoiding the "Controversial Christian Theology" forum.

 

[Shadowprophet]

In that case, I'd recommend avoiding the "Controversial Christian Theology" forum.

And I'd recommend not slandering the Name Of the Lord God most Holy. and I will post where ever I see fit.

Controversial it may be. But I will speak the truth of the lord here. This is still a christian place.
People who misuse the name of the lord God will be put in their place.

If someone asked God something of you, Would God tell an untruth?.. His name is Holy, He is Holy. And His holy name is being used wrongly in this very thread.

 

[NightHawkeye]

I mean has no one really considered the title to this thread? Prove that God is Good. I mean. Can no one else see how the Op Used manipulation to bait people into this thread? Any Christian aught to know better then to question Gods Morality. The whole premise behind this thread is a work of the devil. To even question Gods Goodness, When God cant even stand Lies or sin, And to Use Gods name in such a way. The title alone approaches Slander Of God. I dislike this thread quite a bit actually.

Hi ShadowProphet. I respectfully must disagree.

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs | Monticello

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."​

 

[Tree of Life]

What would you say if someone asked you to prove that God is good?

Isn't this what Satan asked Jesus in the dessert? Jesus said: "It is written - You shall not put the Lord your God to the test."

 

[alexandriaisburning]

I mean has no one really considered the title to this thread? Prove that God is Good. I mean. Can no one else see how the Op Used manipulation to bait people into this thread? Any Christian aught to know better then to question Gods Morality. The whole premise behind this thread is a work of the devil. To even question Gods Goodness, When God cant even stand Lies or sin, And to Use Gods name in such a way. The title alone approaches Slander Of God. I dislike this thread quite a bit actually.

Seriously, it's a legitimate (if philosophically misguided) question. The question does come up in apologetics generally, so it's not "slanderous" to raise the question.

If you don't like the thread, why are you participating in it? It's like people complaining about violence on television...if you're opposed to it, turn it off and do something else. Your self-righteous "offense" is disingenuous to say the least.

 

[Albion]

And I'd recommend not slandering the Name Of the Lord God most Holy. and I will post where ever I see fit.

Hey, you were the one saying that you could hardly bear to be on this forum, so the easiest and most sensible way to solve your problem is to choose a different one.

And, BTW, no one said that you cannot post here if that's your choice.