Prove that God is good

alexandriaisburning

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That argument doesn't work with someone who is agnostic.

When we give our children vaccinations, all they know is fear and pain. They have no idea that it is good for them, but it is.

Our life on earth could hold many similar experiences if life is eternal. Otherwise, how could you call a God good who created millions of people who will be born to suffer daily then die in pain?

I never suggested that this argument would be successful in winning over an agnostic or an atheist to believe in the goodness of God (or God, for that matter). In fact, my initial response to this question was that it's impossible to "prove" God's goodness.

It can't be done, but at the same time, simply offering the panacea of "eternal life" as "making up" for a lifetime of suffering is a bit disingenuous, IMO. Such doesn't actually deal with the "problem of evil" at all...it only pushes it off into speculation that can't possibly be established as true.
 
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What would you say if someone asked you to prove that God is good?

I would say that God is good in my opinion because:

1. He has given life to me, even though I have done nothing to deserve it.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

2. He has given free will.

3. He don’t do anything evil.
 
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Hillsage

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It's a helpful analogy for describing how human beings adjudicate the "goodness" of a behavior (even if we are admitting that it is a relative scale based on the additional adjudication of the outcomes). However, it's not really useful when discussing the goodness of God. God's actions aren't good because they result in the most desirable outcome (although one might argue that this is, in fact, the case). No, God's actions are good because it is God acting. As God is necessarily good, it follows that God's actions must necessarily be good, regardless of how desirable we conclude the outcomes to be.
I think the OP question is about us as human beings adjudicating our judgment of whether God is 'good' or 'evil' or both. And since the question is asked by men for men's opinion then I give mine based upon how we as men will ultimately realize 'true goodness' of God even though He has no problem claiming 'evil' in scripture. BTW isn't your quote in bold above, a personal opinion also.

So tell me, what is your authority for saying "his actions are good because it is God acting"?

Here's my scripture refuting yours and supporting my opinion...I think; Was it not God himself in Gen 2:18 who said 'it is not GOOD that he made man without a helper' to begin with? According to your definition, does that mean when "His actions" made Adam, that God wasn't GOOD?

And yet, according to my post....time and the 'fulfilled purpose of God' for Adam, who made Eve later, would still support my POV.
 
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Hillsage

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In fact, my initial response to this question was that it's impossible to "prove" God's goodness.

It can't be done, but at the same time, simply offering the panacea of "eternal life" as "making up" for a lifetime of suffering is a bit disingenuous, IMO. Such doesn't actually deal with the "problem of evil" at all...it only pushes it off into speculation that can't possibly be established as true.
I think Job proves one can determine GOOD and EVIL. And though Job's evil was not for "a lifetime" maybe, I think Job's testimony here, as well as God's ultimate blessing upon him later, still agrees with my opinion.

JOB 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive GOOD at the hand of God, and shall we not receive EVIL? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
 
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Achilles6129

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What is good to one person may be evil to another. The Nazi regime would consider it good to eradicate the Jews for instance.

For the concept to have any merit and not be merely a description of what someone wants, it needs a universal definition, a Platonic Form if you will. Something which is Good itself, upon which others' idea of what is 'good' or not can be measured.

The very idea of the Christian God is predicated on Him undertaking this function.

I would tell them that the first thing is to prove to yourself which god or idea of a god is the real God. Then, is the God of the Bible that one? If so--and I believe it to be so--the question is answered because the Bible reveals that the nature of God is good.

OK - and what would you say if the overwhelming majority of people thought of God as evil? Like I said above, take the example of the two witnesses in the book of Revelation. Clearly, the entire planet thinks they're evil, but we're told they're good.

I guess my question is this: would you still define God as good even if he did something that the overwhelming, overwhelming majority of the planet thought of as evil? Would you define God as good no matter what, or is their something he could do that would make you not define him as good?
 
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Achilles6129

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The situations that obtain within the contingent creation have no bearing on the goodness of God. If God is good, then God is good. God is not good "if" x, y, and z obtain within creation, or "not good" if a, b, and c do obtain; God's goodness is not a measure of God's relationship to a standard of behavior or being. God is good simply because God exists; by virtue of this starting proposition, it follows that all that God does (or doesn't do, for that matter) is good...again, not because it "seems" so, or because it measures up to what goodness is in our minds. No, God is good because God is God; all of God's actions must therefore be good because it is a good God acting.

You basically take the same position as me, which is that whatever God does it's good, regardless if someone else (or even everyone else) considers it to be morally heinous. In this position it's impossible for God to be evil. God is good simply because he is the Supreme Being and the most intelligent/powerful being that there is, meaning that he defines good and evil. So if God does something that everyone else thinks is monstrously evil, then what everyone else thinks is monstrously evil is actually good, only they didn't realize it.

I think that probably the overwhelming majority of humanity will define God as evil for all of eternity. In other words, they will never get over the fact that God is a moral monster by their standards of morality. I base this conclusion of off Scripture, especially Revelation 11 with the death of the two witnesses.

I think this raises a further important point: it's impossible to prove what good and evil are. We simply have to trust that the most powerful and most intelligent being knows the difference between good and evil, even if what he thinks flies in the face of "human standards" of morality.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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I think the OP question is about us as human beings adjudicating our judgment of whether God is 'good' or 'evil' or both.

Not quite. The OP asked what I would say if someone asked me to "prove that God is good". I would first of all explain that it's impossible to do so. I would then explain my reasons, as I already have above.

BTW isn't your quote in bold above, a personal opinion also.

Of course it is. What's your point?

So tell me, what is your authority for saying "his actions are good because it is God acting"?

Logic and the history of philosophy and theology, for starters...

Here's my scripture refuting yours and supporting my opinion...I think; Was it not God himself in Gen 2:18 who said 'it is not GOOD that he made man without a helper' to begin with? According to your definition, does that mean when "His actions" made Adam, that God wasn't GOOD?

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I've been arguing. The Genesis account is a theological narrative, written by humans, in an attempt to give a glimpse into the purposes of God in creation. I don't take the words literally, as if God had an internal, rhetorical conversation.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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I think Job proves one can determine GOOD and EVIL. And though Job's evil was not for "a lifetime" maybe, I think Job's testimony here, as well as God's ultimate blessing upon him later, still agrees with my opinion.

I never said that good and evil cannot be determined, in relation to human actions. You are arguing with someone else on that point. My point is that it's not possible to "prove" that God is good. Philosophically, if we grant that God exists, we must necessarily posit that God is good, for goodness (as it pertains to God) has no reference or existence outside the assumption of God's existence.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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You basically take the same position as me, which is that whatever God does it's good, regardless if someone else (or even everyone else) considers it to be morally heinous. In this position it's impossible for God to be evil. God is good simply because he is the Supreme Being and the most intelligent/powerful being that there is, meaning that he defines good and evil. So if God does something that everyone else thinks is monstrously evil, then what everyone else thinks is monstrously evil is actually good, only they didn't realize it.

I agree to an extent, but I still think your understanding of the relationship of "goodness" to the existence of God is not quite right. God is not good because God is the "most" or "greatest" of other beings, as if "goodness" is an attribute that is associated to a particular genus or stratus of being. Goodness is inseparable from the existence of God; it cannot properly be spoken of apart from the existence of God, as if it is merely a modifier of being.

Moreover, God does not properly "define" good and evil, as if good and evil are ontological entities that exist distinctly from the eternal existence of God. We speak of "goodness" only insofar as we are speaking of that which God is and does. In a similar way, we can only speak of "evil" insofar as we are speaking of the diminution of the good.

I think that probably the overwhelming majority of humanity will define God as evil for all of eternity. In other words, they will never get over the fact that God is a moral monster by their standards of morality. I base this conclusion of off Scripture, especially Revelation 11 with the death of the two witnesses.

It's certainly possible. However, I think it's more likely that the love of God will inevitably win them over to embrace the eternal goodness of God.
 
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OK - and what would you say if the overwhelming majority of people thought of God as evil? Like I said above, take the example of the two witnesses in the book of Revelation. Clearly, the entire planet thinks they're evil, but we're told they're good.

I guess my question is this: would you still define God as good even if he did something that the overwhelming, overwhelming majority of the planet thought of as evil? Would you define God as good no matter what, or is their something he could do that would make you not define him as good?
I thought I had answered this.
Yes, Good no matter what.
The belief of men on what is good or evil is relative. God however is the Absolute upon which we must measure whether something is definitively good or not.
 
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Shadowprophet

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What would you say if someone asked you to prove that God is good?

I would simply say, Get behind me Satan, You draw the very breath of life as well comprehend thought because God Willed it to be so. If someone is so blasphemous as to question if God is indeed Good, Then those people are clearly working for the other side,. This is truth. The first person that ever asked me to prove God was good to them, I would probably shun their lack of spiritual understanding/education.

If someone is so lost that they don't even understand how God is Good, Then that individual may be completely beyond our help... Sometimes we must shake the dust from our feet and move on.. And in such a case as that. I would definitely be shaking some dust.
 
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actionsub

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What would you say if someone asked you to prove that God is good?
Do like everyone else I know and mindlessly echo, "all the time..."

My number one pet peeve.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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What would you say if someone asked you to prove that God is good?

You can't prove anything about "god"; however, you can prove that Christ is good, and He is God. Christians have no other God than Christ. When we see Christ we see the Father.

You can't talk about an ethereal god of one's imagination as being good, or evil, for that matter, but you can, and should show them Jesus.

A Christian should quickly focus any apologetic discussion toward Jesus rather than an abstract and invisible "god".
 
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Strong in Him

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I think I might say that I don't need to prove it to myself, because I know him and know that he is, and that if you get to know him and have a relationship with him, you can prove it for yourself too.

I don't know how else to prove a relationship. Though Jesus said that God is good, so maybe ask the person if they believe what Jesus taught.
 
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I would simply say, Get behind me Satan, You draw the very breath of life as well comprehend thought because God Willed it to be so. If someone is so blasphemous as to question if God is indeed Good, Then those people are clearly working for the other side,. This is truth. The first person that ever asked me to prove God was good to them, I would probably shun their lack of spiritual understanding/education.

If someone is so lost that they don't even understand how God is Good, Then that individual may be completely beyond our help... Sometimes we must shake the dust from our feet and move on.. And in such a case as that. I would definitely be shaking some dust.

That's not really very helpful.

Someone may have suffered great tragedy in their lives and their question might be, "how do I know God is good when he's done this to me? Can you prove it to me?" They may be looking at all the suffering in the world and asking, "if God is good and loves us, why does he allow this?"
These are valid questions which many have asked, in fact I was once told that THE most common question that unbelievers ask is, "why does God allow suffering?" To take the attitude that they are lost if they are questioning the goodness of God and don't have much spiritual understanding, does not help them to understand, or answer the question.
Would Jesus have answered such a question by saying, "you are probably beyond help", and shaking the dust from his feet?
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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What would you say if someone asked you to prove that God is good?

(Forgive the long reply, but I have worked extensively on subjects like this over the last 10 years of my life, and have engaged very deeply in Scriptural/theological and philosophical study to answer these questions. I hope you will take the time to read it if you are genuinely interested in the answer and desire to employ what I myself have developed and used on many occasions to satisfy even some of the most stubborn atheists, agnostics and frustrated Christians.)

There is, in fact, a comprehensive answer to this question that should satisfy anyone genuinely seeking an understanding and a certainty of the goodness of God. I have established a scripturally sound cumulative argument that approaches the question with three logically successive points:

1. The human capacity to apprehend objective moral values and duties.
2. The Providence of God in creating the world which would produce the greatest potential good, and,
3. The incarnation and life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Presumably, if someone inquires how we are to know that God is good, we are taking the existence of God for granted, at least for the sake of argument. Thus I will skip the question of competing (false) claims to ostensible sources for morality and answer how we may know specifically that God has revealed Himself truthfully to us as perfect in moral knowledge, character and authority. Pay very close attention to the logic of the following points and their order in this case, designated by numbers that correspond to the three above listed:
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(1.) Since God created us, the universe that surrounds us and everything extrinsic to Himself, everything in all existence derives it's being from God in its entirety. This includes the entity inside of our flesh we call the brain, which was created to be our fleshly device by which we process our thoughts, emotions and the world around us in our mental interactions with it. This brain in which we contain all of our cognitive capacities and functions was provided by God all of its abilities, not only in its range of apprehensions of truths but also in its ability to apprehend categories of truth.

What I mean by ranges of apprehension is our brains capacity to be used to process information at certain speeds, the amount of information our brain can hold simultaneously, how efficient our thought processes are, how much access we have to our subconscious, etc.; our quantitative abilities. What I mean by categories of apprehension is what we can apprehend to exist at all, which we can extend the range of our capacities through to apprehend knowledge about such matters. To provide an example, the range of our cognitive capacities concerning moral truths would be applied to discriminating between events and actions to determine the moral quality of those events and actions; our cognitive capacity of categorical apprehension of truth in this instance would be the ability to understand that their even is a moral realm to apprehend at all.

Thus, if God wanted to deceive us, being the designer of our cognitive functions and capacities in their entirety, He would not even have to try. All God would have to do to deceive humankind is provide them cognitive capacities so limited that they would be absolutely unable to apprehend His deception if He were to flaunt His malevolent motives before their eyes all day long. So what you have to ask yourself is this: If God wanted to deceive me, why would He provide me the cognitive ability to discriminate between truth and falsehood with such accuracy that I would be able to discover His deception? The truth is, doubt exists for only two reasons: Ignorance and free agency. Either we are simply lacking in knowledge and unable to understand why God is abundantly worthy of our absolute trust, or we simply choose to deny Him and His testimony. This decision or ignorant response of doubt never results from rational investigation.

In summary, God is the author of the same cognitive functions that we must use to doubt Him or impose our perspectives onto His creative decree (how we think things ought to be), wholly by the use of the tools provided by His decree of our minds. When you consider this, it should occur to you that there is literally no more of an absurd use of our minds than to use them against the one who constituted them, to doubt what He has revealed of Himself or the perfection of His will.
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It could then be asked, "Why, then, would God create a world that is pervaded by so much evil?" To address this potential confusion if it arises from the first point, we would then demonstrate the providence of God in creating a world of free moral agents from the plethora of options available to Him.
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(2.) In creating a universe that would accommodate truly free moral agents, God would have an infinite number of options available to Him with an equally infinite amount of possible outcomes. From what we know about the nature of God, He would naturally choose to create the world which would produce the greatest possible outcome. What is the greatest possible outcome? There is none other than that world which provides the circumstances which leads the largest number of souls to freely accept the grace of God through the salvation provided in Jesus Christ. From what we know about God's nature, particularly that God is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent, this can be deductively inferred as follows:

1. Because God is omnibenevolent, He would be desire to create the world which would produce the greatest potential good
2. Because God is omniscient, He would know which world would produce the greatest potential good
3. Because God is omnipotent, He would be able to create the world which would produce the greatest potential good

Therefore the world in which we exist is that which would produce the great potential good. To repeat, this greatest good is the largest number of souls that would freely surrender themselves to God and receive His grace.

To repeat, God would have had a literally infinite number of options present of worlds to create with an equally infinite number of outcomes. By His perfect nature, however, God would not create a world at random in which His will to create concurrently free and absolutely loved creatures was not accomplished. So God would have to narrow His options to feasible worlds which accommodate creaturely freedom and yet lovingly provides the circumstances that permits each person who would freely choose God to do so. Knowing God, once He had narrowed the options to the assortment of great results, He would naturally choose the greatest of these possible outcomes. This is not to say God is predestining our decisions, but the creation of the world which would provide the social, environmental and personal circumstances that are necessary for each individual, in their own times and places as God foreknew, to interact with each other, their environment and God in a way that corresponds to their psychology/personality, ultimately and inevitably leading to the salvation of those who would freely respond affirmatively to God's grace in whatever circumstance they find themselves. In this sense, then, God can literally be said to have elected those who are saved, though their choices as well as those who reject God are entirely free.

As is stated in Acts 17, God placed us within our context because He knew that if given that context we would freely choose to accept Him by the testimony and in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. It could then be rightly asked "well then could God have not provided a precise set of circumstances that would be those which are necessary to win the soul of every person?", and the answer would be no. For some people, there is no such set of circumstances that would be sufficient for them to freely receive the salvation of Christ by the Holy Spirit's testimony. This is affirmed doubly in the Scriptures. First, in Daniel 12:10 concerning the course through to the end times Jesus says: "Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand." Again, concerning God's providence Paul says in Romans 9:22: "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"

It may also seem confusing to think that God has among His human creation "objects of wrath" which He prepares for destruction, until you comprehend these points and Scriptures collectively. There are some souls which God would create that will freely reject Him under any and all circumstances, but are still necessary in the grand scheme of world history to play a role in drawing all those who will be freely saved into that salvation. God Himself illustrates this wonderfully in His statement to Pharaoh in Exodus 9:15-16: "For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

See Acts 17:26-27, Genesis 50:20, Jeremiah 25:8-14 and Judges 14:4 for more Scriptural examples on the providence of God and how it works.
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After presenting this point, you could not properly present any apologetic case without concluding with an emphasis of and a direction towards the gospel of Christ. In this particular case, you will need to demonstrate that the gospel reveals that God is not removed from human suffering in any sense, including a truly human perspective.
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(3.) The gospel reveals that God is not removed from human suffering, neither emotionally nor physically, nor even perspectively; God is comprehensively acquainted with our suffering (Isaiah 53:3). In the gospel it is revealed that Jesus of Nazareth, the Word (or logos) of God, the second person of the Trinity, incarnated in the body of a man; He assumed the nature of a man and though remaining truly God became also truly man, possessing the divine nature in His Spirit and the human nature in His flesh. Thus, though this man we call Jesus Christ remained perfect in His divine qualities, He subjected Himself to the expression of those qualities by fleshly limitations, though remaining sinless, and to the human experience of our weaknesses.

Christ had to endure the course of the human life, growing from a child into a man, obeying His Father from a truly human perspective. He was submitted like a man to the duties the Father assigned Him in His life and physically and emotionally endured the hardships of human service with the taxing nature of living to glorify, in the flesh, our heavenly Father in a world pervaded by sin, to love enduringly those who did not love Him. Throughout His ministry, Jesus faced hunger, thirst, fatigue, self-denial, rejection, persecution, mockery, hatred, abandonment, physical attacks, brutality and eventually death. To compound the problem, all of this was endured as innocent suffering by a man who had no culpability, and who lived for the exclusive purpose of glorifying His Father through the extension of His grace, mercy, love towards and leadership of lost mankind.

There is no man more acquainted with suffering, and no man less deserving of His fate than Jesus Christ Himself. Yet this is the life Christ endured to provide the unmerrited favour of God towards the world He gave Himself up for; "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8)." To emphasize the truly human experience of this suffering, Christ did not endure His road to the cross removed from the depth and perspective of the human experience, but demonstrated intense anxiety, anguish and sorrow towards His impending fate of temporary separation from His Father and physical death (Matthew 26:41-42, Luke 22:44). Despite this, He surrendered Himself to this fate to be offered as the only ransom which is acceptable for our account, the only name under heaven by which we can be saved (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and was resurrected on the third day following to vindicate His claims before many witnesses, as the gospels testify.

Jesus Christ is the fullness of deity in human form (Colossians 2:9), the complete expression of God and everything He wanted and needed to say to mankind. He is our advocate, our mediator, our saviour and Lord; the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty. In Christ is the fulfillment of human existence, our purpose, our meaning, our value and our suffering.
 
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rockytopva

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I would need help from Socrates...

"Then God, if he be good is not the author of all things, as the many assert, but he is the cause of a few things only, and not of the most things that occur to men. For few are the goods of human life and many the evils, and the good is to be attributed to God alone; of the evils the causes are to be sought elsewhere, and not in him." - Plato's Republic
 
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What would you say if someone asked you to prove that God is good?
Darkness is the absence of light. Bad is the absence of good. You've been a bad boy that wants something good but you're questioning God like that will keep you in the dark.
 
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