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Personally, the important part is testable change in orientation, in whatever form that takes. If a person starts off with no attraction to the same sex, but after the process they do, that would be very, very interesting.
So, you're admitting it would be pointless, as you have no desire to change anyway.Nope. I'm saying I don't think change is possible. And I don't want to anyway. I'm also saying to those that think it is: Change, then I'll be proved wrong.
Possibly, but did they do the attraction and blood flow tests before you started, in order to confirm that there was an actual change?At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I'm one of these people. I went from straight to bisexual over three years.
Also, this.Well see that's wherein lies the trouble. Ex-gay therapy isn't about making gays straight or helping them cope with being faced with a life of isolation and celibacy always marked by the suspicious glares of "normal" "Christians". Its about giving false-hope to the parents of a gay or lesbian child, and making money while feeling morally superior. In short, Ex-gay therapy is to treat straight peoples' problem with gay people.
Bingo, you also get a cookie. The so-called ex-gays are nothing of the sort. They're still as gay as a box of birds, they're just pretending they arent.
The man is not bald anymore.
Possibly, but did they do the attraction and blood flow tests before you started, in order to confirm that there was an actual change?
It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just looking for a controlled scientific experiment to be done.
Actually, I do believe that some people have fluid sexualities. I've certainly known people that have gone back and forth. I envy them. However, on the other side, I do think it's impossible for most people.No, they didn't. Your position is, of course, entirely reasonable.
I have no problem with a scientifically rigorous approach. I just don't like the out-and-out claim that no person has ever changed their sexuality, voluntarily or otherwise, or the implication that everyone who claims to have changed is a liar.
Eh. That's always been a problem in the GLBATOQQS . . . community.It makes me sad that a lot of queer people are very enthusiastic about welcoming everyone into the fold, until someone doesn't fit the born-queer mould (or the proud-queer mould, or the no-longer-queer mould, or whatever; and that's not to mention bi-invisibility). I understand why the hostility is there, but I don't think that queer-by-choice people necessarily deserve it.
Anyway, sorry, /rant.
Actually, I do believe that some people have fluid sexualities. I've certainly known people that have gone back and forth. I envy them. However, on the other side, I do think it's impossible for most people.
Eh. That's always been a problem in the GLBATOQQS . . . community.
I think the problem is that people assume that if their specific label isn't mentioned, it won't be welcome. If it only says "Gay-Straight Alliance," that means that lesbians aren't allowed to attend the meetings.
No matter how many labels that you try to add, you're always going to overlook someone, and then people get upset that they aren't listed.
Really, I've never really separated out the born-queer, now-queer, but that doesn't mean that I'm hostile to them. It just means that I haven't yet needed to recognize it.
No no, I'm not talking about not having the labels in there. That's a matter of practicality and I'm not offended by it. I'm talking about out-and-out (no play on words intended) hostility that I have experienced directly from various people, either because of my bisexuality or my queer-by-choice status. I never assume people are hostile until they actually behave in a hostile fashion, and by hostile I mean having people say things like "You have no right to call yourself queer" or "You are lying to yourself" or "You are not a real bisexual" or "You're just greedy." As I said before, I can completely understand why this hostility is there, but I don't think that makes it okay. It actually really hurts.
No, I don't think there's a need to because I don't think it's an important distinction. But it does make me uncomfortable when the primary argument in favour of LGBT&c. rights seems to be "It's not our fault." And it seems to be an important distinction to some people, because they are willing to call queer-by-choice people liars.
Or, he changed, voluntarily or involuntarily, as some people do.
Why do we have to have a name for everything?
Well, that's a tough one. I definitely understand why people get upset: If you can change, then that seems to suggest that they can change too. That's a sensitive subject in the &c. community, because of all of the attempts at forcing change and denial of our existence that we've all been through.
I also understand why it hurts to be told that you're lying to yourself. After all, I'm an atheist posting on CF. I've certainly been told that before.
The best thing that we can do is have a calm and rational conversation, and that is a very, very difficult thing to do sometimes.
I've decided that instead of trying to post all of the letters for an acronym, I'm just going to call it the &c. community.Or, at least until I forget.
I didn't say that he didn't change, I merely said it is unlikely. Even in your case, you did not go from heterosexual only to homosexual only -- evidence tells us that kind of change is extremely rare and maybe even not possible. Instead, it is highly likely that he still has attractions to both sexes.
I'd likely agree with you about the labels other than the Christians who try to claim that anyone can do a complete change from homosexual to heterosexual, where they have zero attraction to the same sex. And because they try to claim this about everyone, then most of us feel a need to point out that kind of change is possible.
Personally, I tend to think sexual orientation is something closer to what Fritz Klein suggested and that many people do have some malleability in sexual orientation.
Or four: he changed, either voluntarily or involuntarily, as some people do.
Why do there need to be labels for everything? Why can't there be anomalies which don't support a general point? Why can't everyone just be more sensible about this issue?
People's self-identification is what matters. This guy identified as straight-then-gay-then-straight? Then that's what he was. Why does that pain you so much? It doesn't mean anyone and everyone can and/or should change. It just means that he did.
I really hate it when people deny others' experiences. Here I am, a bisexual person who actively chose bisexuality over heterosexuality. I notice that I get quietly ignored. Why? Because I don't fit? Because I'm not important? Do you think I'm a liar? Or am I just inconvenient?
Alright then. Let me come at you from a different angle then (the fundy angle). Since you just chose to become bisexual your sinful lifestyle choice doesn't deserve the same civil rights protections as normal Americans. You weren't born that way. You just want special rights. Want to marry someone of the same sex? Sorry, not allowed, but you have the perfect freedom to marry someone of the opposite sex JUST like everyone else. So nyah!
Arguing over "choice" vs. "born" distracts from the core of the issue: restricting marriage to a certain definition of gender combination is an unfair limitation of rights. Marriage is a legal contract - any individuals of legal age wanting to enter into it should be allowed to do so.
Agreed.
But maybe someone can help me here. There are those of us who contend that their sexual orientation *was* indeed a choice. Well, I'm certainly not going to call shenanigans on that, because quite frankly, there's no way I could even begin to prove them wrong. But I just can't wrap my head around it. Let me explain.
I do believe that sexual orientation can be fluid, in that it can change over the course of one's lifetime. As such, a person's preference will change accordingly. However, I do not believe that this is a *conscious* choice through force of will. I cannot see how someone could willfully choose to be attracted to one thing or another. One is either attracted, or not attracted - dictated soley through sexual orientation. Are some of you saying that there is a real, conscious, willful choice in the matter? Or are you simply saying that sexual orientations are indeed fluid and can change (through no force of will), as I read it? That said, I do believe also that bisexuality is a valid sexual orientation in that, one can be attraced to one sex or the other, but I also believe this attraction is not chosen.
Agreed.
But maybe someone can help me here. There are those of us who contend that their sexual orientation *was* indeed a choice. Well, I'm certainly not going to call shenanigans on that, because quite frankly, there's no way I could even begin to prove them wrong. But I just can't wrap my head around it. Let me explain.
I do believe that sexual orientation can be fluid, in that it can change over the course of one's lifetime. As such, a person's preference will change accordingly. However, I do not believe that this is a *conscious* choice through force of will. I cannot see how someone could willfully choose to be attracted to one thing or another. One is either attracted, or not attracted - dictated soley through sexual orientation. Are some of you saying that there is a real, conscious, willful choice in the matter? Or are you simply saying that sexual orientations are indeed fluid and can change (through no force of will), as I read it? That said, I do believe also that bisexuality is a valid sexual orientation in that, one can be attraced to one sex or the other, but I also believe this attraction is not chosen.
Alright then. Let me come at you from a different angle then (the fundy angle). Since you just chose to become bisexual your sinful lifestyle choice doesn't deserve the same civil rights protections as normal Americans. You weren't born that way. You just want special rights. Want to marry someone of the same sex? Sorry, not allowed, but you have the perfect freedom to marry someone of the opposite sex JUST like everyone else. So nyah!
Maybe you've been through this before... um... but why would you put yourself through that?I'll explain how I changed my sexual orientation. I simply spent three years telling myself that I found women attractive. It took a lot of effort. I had to consciously remind myself to think, "That woman is attractive. I am attracted to her." It did not come naturally to me at all in the beginning. However, after three years of doing that, it began to come naturally. Now it's second nature. I guess it's kind of like when you listen to some music you don't really "get" over and over again, and gradually it starts to sound good, to make sense to you.
I'm quite sure I couldn't change back, by the way, but maybe that'd be different for some people. Now I know what there is to like about women, I think it'd be hard to give them up.
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