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Shemjaza

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Why would we assume that this squirrel is evolving into a flying creature? Perhaps its only evolving into a gliding creature, which is what it is after all.

Why would we assume such a thing? Because we are looking for evidence of something which lacks evidence, therefore this absence of evidence is itself the evidence that our scientific methods are flawed. If we assume its evolving into a flying creature, when there is no evidence to support this assumption, this is not actually science is it?
I'm not assuming anything of the sort.

But it is an example of a possible transition between a four legged climbing mammal and a flying mammal.

This is evidence that small changes are not impossible from wingless to winged.

People have been posting a great many actual transitional fossils in this thread. Homo erectus, tiktaalik roseae and ambulocetus are some good ones.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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They cannot use the fossil record to prove anything. It is a static snapshot of an animal or organism that once was alive and then died. It cannot tell you how old it was, in its age (as an animal, infant, youth, adult etc.) whether it had any brothers or sisters, if it ever mated, it is just bones. It existed. They may find bones of similar animals and line them up to say that animal A slowly changed into animal B over time. But they cannot prove it. It is all assumptions, extrapolation and surmising. Sure you can change dogs into many kinds of dogs, bacteria into other strains of bacteria, virus's into other mutated virus's but they are still dogs, bacteria and virus's.

The only reason that the fossil record pulls as much weight as it does is due the the sheer numbers of "accredited" "educated" people who support it. That is all. Go get an education, doctorate in this field of study and then try to go against the mob and you will be harassed, discredited, shunned have your character assassinated.

For something to be accepted in any other field of science, it has to be observable, testable and repeatable. The farce of evolution is none of these.

They want this to be true so badly that they have stretched and bent and pressed the fossils into the cookie cutter shape they need them to be in order to fit their theory. They then get every graduate to back it as if it was the gospel itself and ridicule anyone that argues against it.

They, then, ignore the one solid piece that pulls the bottom card of their house of cards....... how did it all start?

They can tell you an astonishing line of how this organism became this and this and then this as they draw an elaborate tree of branches and twigs. However they cannot tell you where the first organism came from, where it got life, how it knew how to eat, replicate etc. Don't ask them that. They are not going there...... BUT after that they will tell you it's solid gold truth what happened to the next organism..and the next and the next.

My kids are now young adults. They were inundated with the TOE and all the spin off "science" that "supports" it as it is woven throughout the education process. NONE of them, even now, believe the "ape minded" white coat idea that we came from apes......

Don't lose heart. Raise them up knowing that God formed Adam with His OWN hands and breathed the breath of life into this first human body....... then, used a rib to create the first woman. There was no other female human, until their was a God formed human man. SO...... Biblicaly..... evolution dies right there. You cannot ignore the blatant fact written in scripture that God formed the first human male, then the female.

So, anyone that is a God fearing, bible believing person cannot say that that was not a distinct, obvious, in your face description of where humans originated from.
Let's hope your kids get a better science education than you did.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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There are rules for Bible interpretation. Just like you have rules for science. Do a google search and do a little bit of research. It is amazing how much science you expect me to know in comparison to how little you know about the Bible. You should play by the same rules you want to apply to others. Atheistic double speak and double standards are little more then propaganda.
Sure, there are "rules" for Bible interpretation: you make them up as you go along. "Heads, I win; tails, you lose."
 
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Extraneous

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I'm not assuming anything of the sort.

But it is an example of a possible transition between a four legged climbing mammal and a flying mammal.

This is evidence that small changes are not impossible from wingless to winged.

People have been posting a great many actual transitional fossils in this thread. Homo erectus, tiktaalik roseae and ambulocetus are some good ones.

With respect, i don't agree that those fossils are evidence of any transition at all. Its more likely that its just speculation. Science must speculate in the beginning. Thats the first step in discovery. However, speculation is often left unproven in the end, and we are still left with more questions than answers.
 
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Subduction Zone

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We tend to win the elections. I lived in Utah for a while and you can be sure that if you are not a Mormon then there is not a very good chance you will win an election in that state. Creationism needs to be taught in Sunday School. Evolutionist is taught in Science class. Evolution is a method or a way to teach the material and they would have a lot of trouble teaching science without the theory of evolution. Contrary to claims the theory does not have much application in the real world. Unless you want to produce flys with legs growing out of their head.
Sorry, but the constitution protects us from that tyranny. You don't even understand what the theory of evolution is. Sadly you like so many creationists call science that you do not like "evolutionism" or some other such nonsense. Like it or not the theory of evolution is fact based. Creationism is based upon mythology. That is why your side lost those ten court cases you listed. There is no reliable evidence for creationism. There is reliable evidence that supports the theory of evolution and other sciences that you do not like.

You should at the very least try to understand the simple concept of scientific evidence. Then you might begin to learn why creationism is pure nonsense.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You Are right it is nonsense that a dog could grow wings. It is also nonsense that a dinosaur could.

Also why do you want me to talk about dog breeding it is off topic. We all know how dogs breed.. They have sex and pass on Thiet traits.


Answer the question.

Is the ancestral dog from which chiuwawa's, great danes, pitbulls,... decend a "full breed" in its own right, or is it a "half-chiuwawa, half-great dane, half-pitbull,..."?
 
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DogmaHunter

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No one is forcing anything. We live in a democracy where we have majority rule.

Science is not a democratic undertaking.
Science is ruled by evidence, not by majority vote. And most certainly not by court ruling.
 
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Subduction Zone

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There are rules for Bible interpretation. Just like you have rules for science. Do a google search and do a little bit of research. It is amazing how much science you expect me to know in comparison to how little you know about the Bible. You should play by the same rules you want to apply to others. Atheistic double speak and double standards are little more then propaganda.
Sorry, there are no "rules for Bible interpretation". A certain religion may have their own rules but there is no one overarching set of rules. That is one of the reasons that there are over 40,000 different sects of your religion.
 
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TLK Valentine

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So here is my challenge to all my evolutionist friends, and other interested parties. Scientific jargon makes it impossible for the average man to understand if evolution is true or false. We don't understand RNA, DNA, etc, so we have to remain silent and trust others.

Not impossible -- it just requires effort.

You can put in effort, can't you?
 
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DogmaHunter

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So what if a dog suddenly needed wings how woul it get them.

If a dog would "suddenly need wings" in order to survive, then the dog will die and the species would go extinct.

Learn the theory you wish to argue against to avoid making such ridiculous statements please.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Look I know what you are saying ...

Do you really? Your posts suggest the exact opposite.

I will use dogs as an example ... A dog starts to grow bone tissue in its side due to mutation. Over millions of years it is passed on slowly parts of the dog population get increased bone size. It turns out that this bone help the dog balance, so it is a better hunter. The trait gets passed on. Then another mutation occurs that gives the dog a swivel joint. The more I think about it the less sensible evolution is. Do you know how much complexity would be needed to form a wing, even by natural selection.

The argument from complexity is an argument from ignorance.
Just because you can't comprehend it, doesn't mean its false.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Ok ... I am crying here you have broken my heart ... Sob ... Ok smarty pants you explain in a few paragraphs how a dog would grow wings. No science jargon give me you best educated story.

There are no selective pressures at work whatsoever that would favor wing formation in dogs.

Your question is senseless.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Why would we assume that this squirrel is evolving into a flying creature? Perhaps its only evolving into a gliding creature, which is what it is after all.

It's even wrong to say that it is "on the path to anything".

A squirrel is a squirrel is a squirrel.
Selection pressures are what they are at this time.

Future habitat/diet/competition changes might or might not push it further up or further down the tree. It might or might not have a need to easily jump/glide from tree to tree. While we can speculate on how selection pressures will develop in the future for this creature given its current situation, it's close to impossible to know.
 
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DogmaHunter

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With respect, i don't agree that those fossils are evidence of any transition at all. Its more likely that its just speculation. Science must speculate in the beginning. Thats the first step in discovery. However, speculation is often left unproven in the end, and we are still left with more questions than answers.

Not "speculate". Rather "hypothesize". Hypothesis are then tested.
Based on those tests, the hypothesis either gets promoted to theory or it gets discarded.
 
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essentialsaltes

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What so wings just majically appear, with no transitions. No half grown wings? nearly developed wings. Evolutionists have provided one winged dinosaur and say "See proof" .

What is this creationist obsession with "just one Lucy" and so on? It's just not true. Gene2Meme gave a great list of winged dinosaurs. Thinking more about transitional forms, we can look at fabled star of stage and screen... Velociraptor.

"Velociraptor, like other dromaeosaurids, had a large manus ('hand') with three strongly curved claws, which were similar in construction and flexibility to the wing bones of modern birds."

Velociraptor_28-12-2007_15-06-24.jpg


This pattern of three digits in the wing is found in modern birds (but not bats)

homology_550.jpg
 
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digitalgoth

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Hi DogmaHunter,
I enjoyed your post. Our metaphysics are different (I'm a theistic evolutionist) but I think our respect for science is on a par. (Your knowledge of it is probably far greater than mine). You're a software engineer. How do you know so much about evolution? Hobby?

I'm not sure I would hire a software engineer that didn't understand genetic algorithms, or evolutionary programming.

And I have no idea what the opinion would be on AI or neural networks.
 
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