Prove it or remove it challenge

lasthero · Feb 20, 2016

Extraneous said:
Doesn't actually prove anything, and it surely doesn't diminish my skepticism concerning mans ability to discern his own origin via scientific methods. If anything it only supports my conclusion that man is far from being able to discern such a difficult mystery.

So let me get this straight..

You pretty much claim that there's no such thing as Junk DNA, and that it's all nescessary.

Dogma references a study that shows mice operate just fine without 22 milion of their base pairs.

You're response to this, which essentially demolishes your contention is 'So what? Scientists could be wrong!'

Really?

Okay.

By the way, though, I'm curious - what purpose do chickens have for the DNA to make teeth? Why do whales have the DNA to make legs? What purpose is that serving in them?

Subduction Zone · Feb 20, 2016

lasthero said:
So let me get this straight..

You pretty much claim that there's no such thing as Junk DNA, and that it's all nescessary.

Dogma references a study that shows mice operate just fine without 22 milion of their base pairs.

You're response to this, which essentially demolishes your contention is 'So what? Scientists could be wrong!'

Really?

Okay.

By the way, though, I'm curious - what purpose do chickens have for the DNA to make teeth? Why do whales have the DNA to make legs? What purpose is that serving in them?

And in answer to the question that he is afraid to answer why do amoebas have up to 200 times the size of the genome that people do?

I love it when creationists try to say that DNA has to be "information" without defining it and then to make it worse they claim that there is no "Junk DNA". Of course Junk DNA is something that is inexplicable from a creationist point of view, but so is a simple one celled creature that has 200 times our DNA inexplicable from that belief.

HitchSlap · Feb 20, 2016

Paterfamilia said:
There are some pretty serious issues with your theory.

And one good thing about science is the scientists. The way the cycle goes is that if you discover something new that repudiates previous discoveries, you get to be famous and they give you a prize, keeping in mind that Ptolemy is still fighting Copernicus in some people's minds.

And most scientists do want the truth to prevail, although it's counter-intuitive that Chinese paleontologists can look at the Cambrian period and say "Darwin might have been wrong" while western paleontologists look at the same evidence and do backflips to try to shoehorn the data into their extant paradigm.

In this case, however, the lack of simplicity at the fundamental level of life is a serious, serious obstacle to your theory.

This^^^. Says all I need to know about your understanding of real science, and betrays the fact all you've ever looked at are theocreationist sites.

You really do have nothing to offer, which is why you resorted to bluff and bluster so soon.

A bit like playing chess with pigeons, eh.

Lulav · Feb 20, 2016

MOD HAT
CLOSED FOR REVIEW

twob4me · Feb 21, 2016

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Paterfamilia · Feb 21, 2016

HitchSlap said:
This^^^. Says all I need to know about your understanding of real science, and betrays the fact all you've ever looked at are theocreationist sites.

You really do have nothing to offer, which is why you resorted to bluff and bluster so soon.

A bit like playing chess with pigeons, eh.

Chess with pigeons???

Anyway, as I said earlier, the fact is that the more science proves about cell biology, the more complex we find that to be.

Irreducible complexity as a concept is understood to refer to multi-part structures or processes that lose capacity to function if any discrete part is removed.

But what if we take the concept and apply it a bit differently. The smallest, simplest, single-celled organism is irreducibly complex with regard to its essential life functions. We know of other, simpler cells (viruses, etc) but they can't live without some symbiosis or other outside help.

Is it at all troublesome to evolutionists that the essential life structures and processes add up to a number in the many hundreds?

In other words, we should be able to have at least one feasible hypothesis of how all of those essential elements came together and processes got started shouldn't we?

We can talk about how that small dash of LIFE got thrown in later. One thing at a time.

This is a fascinating article (not from theocreationist website) that describes computer cell modeling.

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/july/computer-model-organism-071812.html

Armoured · Feb 21, 2016

Paterfamilia said:
Chess with pigeons???

Anyway, as I said earlier, the fact that the more science proves about cell biology, the more complex we find that to be.

Irreducible complexity as a concept is understood to refer to multi-part structures or processes that lose capacity to function if any discrete part is removed.

But what if we take the concept and apply it a bit differently. The smallest simplest single-called organism is irreducibly complex with regard to its essential life functions. We know of other, simpler cells (viruses, etc) but they can't live without some symbiosis or other outside help.

Is it at all troublesome that the essential life structures and processes add up to a number in the many hundreds?

In other words, we should be able to have at least one feasible hypothesis of how all of those essential elements came together and processes got started shouldn't we?

We can talk about how that small dash of LIFE got thrown in later. One thing at a time.

This is a fascinating article (not from theocreationist website) that describes computer cell modeling.

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/july/computer-model-organism-071812.html

Irreducible complexity is a failed argument. Yes, removing any given vital component of a cell as it exists currently would kill it, that doesn't mean that it's precursors required the same component.

Best analogy I've seen for this sort of thing;

Take the Army (or the large complex organisation of your choice). The modern Army cannot, simply can NOT exist without its complex pay structure and network. Simply couldn't exist, at all.

So does this make the Army an example of irreducible complexity? Of course not. The pay structure of the modern Army developed from nothing and evolved along with the rest of the organisation. The modern Army is directly traceable back to roving Viking war bands and feudal fyrds, which didn't even have a pay structure. But as the Army became larger and more complex, structures that facilitated the growth of complexity were adopted, and in their own turn, became increasingly complex.

Modern cells are kinda like that.

Paterfamilia · Feb 21, 2016

Armoured said:
Irreducible complexity is a failed argument. Yes, removing any given vital component of a cell as it exists currently would kill it, that doesn't mean that it's precursors required the same component.

Best analogy I've seen for this sort of thing;

Take the Army (or the large complex organisation of your choice). The modern Army cannot, simply can NOT exist without its complex pay structure and network. Simply couldn't exist, at all.

So does this make the Army an example of irreducible complexity? Of course not. The pay structure of the modern Army developed from nothing and evolved along with the rest of the organisation. The modern Army is directly traceable back to roving Viking war bands and feudal fyrds, which didn't even have a pay structure. But as the Army became larger and more complex, structures that facilitated the growth of complexity were adopted, and in their own turn, became increasingly complex.

Modern cells are kinda like that.

Okay. Irreducible complexity is not a failed argument, and there are quite a few examples at this point.

Your "best" analogy fails on several points. First, if the complex pay structure disappeared, the army would generate a different pay structure. The army wouldn't die.

Second, modern cells differ very little from ancient cells. They had all the same components.

Armoured · Feb 21, 2016

Paterfamilia said:
Okay. Irreducible complexity is not a failed argument, and there are quite a few examples at this point.

name three?

Your "best" analogy fails on several points. First, if the complex pay structure disappeared, the army would generate a different pay structure. The army wouldn't die.

Obviously never been a soldier, then.

Second, modern cells differ very little from ancient cells. They had all the same components.

Nonsense.

Paterfamilia · Feb 21, 2016

Subduction Zone said:
When a term such as "information" is used colloquially, as it was in your quotes, that does not support your use of the term "information", Paterfamilia.

Again, you are making an equivocation error. If you want to claim that it is "information" in the sense that it had to be written by an intelligence you are going to need a lot more evidence than that.

This is from a paper "Quantitative linguistic study of DNA sequences" published in "Science Direct" that was mentioned on a physics forum that I frequent.

"ABSTRACT
A new family of compound Poisson distribution functions from quantitative linguistics is used to study the linguistic features of DNA sequences that go beyond the Zipf's law. The relative frequency distribution of n-tuples and the compositional segmentation study can be fit reasonably well using this new family of distribution functions. On the other hand, the absolute values of the relative frequency come out naturally from the linguistic model without ambiguity. It is suggesting that DNA sequences have features that resemble natural language and it may be modeled by linguistic methodology."

Please let me know if you want me to translate any of it for you, or explain the ramifications.

Paterfamilia · Feb 21, 2016

Armoured said:
name three?Obviously never been a soldier, then.Nonsense.

Yeah, listen I'm not going to spend a lot of time with you. Sorry about that but your answers don't make any sense.

I served in the US Air Force.

Cyanobacteria are the oldest fossils (3.5 billion years old) and are nearly identical to Cyanobacteria alive today.

Armoured · Feb 21, 2016

Paterfamilia said:
Yeah, listen I'm not going to spend a lot of time with you. Sorry about that but your answers don't make any sense.

I served in the US Air Force.

Cyanobacteria are the oldest fossils (3.5 billion years old) and are nearly identical to Cyanobacteria alive today.

And you think the airfarce would show up to work without pay??

Cyanobacteria might be the oldest fossils, that doesn't mean they are the earliest life form.

Nithavela · Feb 21, 2016

Paterfamilia said:
Chess with pigeons???

It's a description of someones experience while debating someone. Basically, the explanation is that no matter how well you play against the pidgeon, no matter how well thought out your stratagems and moves are, the pidgeon will swipe the pieces from the board, defecate on it and fly away to claim victory in front of it's pals.

Paterfamilia · Feb 21, 2016

Nithavela said:
It's a description of someones experience while debating someone. Basically, the explanation is that no matter how well you play against the pidgeon, no matter how well thought out your stratagems and moves are, the pidgeon will swipe the pieces from the board, defecate on it and fly away to claim victory in front of it's pals.

Ha ha I would have gotten it if he had said seagull!

Paterfamilia · Feb 21, 2016

Armoured said:
And you think the airfarce would show up to work without pay??

Cyanobacteria might be the oldest fossils, that doesn't mean they are the earliest life form.

I think the US Air Force could work out a different pay system. It wouldn't die.

If evolution is true, Cyanobacteria could not be the earliest life form. Thats your problem, not mine.

This is what I meant about your answers. Please wait a few minutes before you answer again. I want to see how this "ignore" feature works.

Paterfamilia · Feb 21, 2016

Ha ha ha that's awesome!

Armoured · Feb 21, 2016

Paterfamilia said:
I think the US Air Force could work out a different pay system. It wouldn't die.

If evolution is true, Cyanobacteria could not be the earliest life form. Thats your problem, not mine.

This is what I meant about your answers. Please wait a few minutes before you answer again. I want to see how this "ignore" feature works.

No one says cyanobacteria is the earliest life form, so why is that a problem for anyone?

wait, you accept science when it says "cyanobacteria is the earliest fossil" but not when science says "evolution is the best explanation for biodiversity we have"?

Paterfamilia · Feb 21, 2016

Good grief...

Please take your dog and find a different thread, or at least someone else to question.

Armoured · Feb 21, 2016

Paterfamilia said:
Good grief...

Please take your dog and find a different thread, or at least someone else to question.

Yeah, good argument.

Gene2memE · Feb 21, 2016

Paterfamilia said:
If evolution is true, Cyanobacteria could not be the earliest life form.

Why would this possibly be true? Cyanobacteria emerged somewhere around 1.6-2 billion years later than the earliest life we have evidence for, certainly no earlier than 1 billion years:

The Evolutionary Diversification of Cyanobacteria: Molecular- Phylogenetic and Paleontological Perspectives

"Time Calibration for the Tree of Life. Integrating molecular phylo-genetic, physiological, paleontological, and geochemical data, we
propose that the clade of cyanobacteria marked by heterocyst and akinete differentiation evolved once between 2,450 and 2,100 Ma." [Ma = million years ago]

Are you aware of just how diverse cyanobacteria are? Or that their genetic diversity provides another strong layer of evidence for evolution?

Phenotypic and genetic diversification of Pseudanabaena spp. (cyanobacteria).

"Our preliminary results on population genetic analyses of the PC genes suggest an evolutionary diversification of Pseudanabaena through purifying selection"

Cyanobacteria are unusually morphologically and genetically diverse. We know of 60 plus basic morphotypes that we can trace genetically back to cyanobacteria in the 1.5-2 Ma period alone.

There are entire TEXT BOOKS written about them and their evolutionary history. Clearly geneticists and biologists have no issues with cyanobacteria and evolution, otherwise they wouldn't be using it as a teaching example.

Prove it or remove it challenge

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