Prove God exists...sure, no problem.

[Eledhan]

Why is this so difficult to a logical mind?

My first question is this...

If there is no God, and all we have to go by are the laws of physics, then where did all the matter in the universe come from?

Second question...

If there is no God, where did energy come from?

Third question...

If there is no God, is there any way for something to come from nothing?

In response to my own questions, I have to say "I don't have the slightest idea" to each one. Now, I realize that I am not the most intelligent person on the planet, so if anyone has a simple, concise answer with scientific proof of bringing matter or energy from a vaccuum, then I would love to hear about it.

I also would like to know how you can have a vaccuum without the idea of "space", which is considered to be one of the things created in the "Big Bang Theory" along with matter and time.

So, ultimately my question is this...

Is there any possible way to explain the origins of the universe using purely natural means?

I say there's not...it's impossible for something to come from nothing. You can't have space just appear. And there's no such thing as physics creating time.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[MrBoo]

If there is no God, and all we have to go by are the laws of physics, then where did all the matter in the universe come from?.

a more important question to me is, where did the laws of physics come from?

We already know the law of gravity works, and we already know how it works, what we dont know is why it works.

 

[Contracelsus]

Why is this so difficult to a logical mind?

My first question is this...

If there is no God, and all we have to go by are the laws of physics, then where did all the matter in the universe come from?

Second question...

If there is no God, where did energy come from?

Third question...

If there is no God, is there any way for something to come from nothing?

In response to my own questions, I have to say "I don't have the slightest idea" to each one. Now, I realize that I am not the most intelligent person on the planet, so if anyone has a simple, concise answer with scientific proof of bringing matter or energy from a vaccuum, then I would love to hear about it.

I also would like to know how you can have a vaccuum without the idea of "space", which is considered to be one of the things created in the "Big Bang Theory" along with matter and time.

So, ultimately my question is this...

Is there any possible way to explain the origins of the universe using purely natural means?

I say there's not...it's impossible for something to come from nothing. You can't have space just appear. And there's no such thing as physics creating time.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

These are all really good questions. And it is reasonable to assume no one knows and no one may ever know. The next big question is: why propose "god"?

If God did these things then is this the last incontrovertible indication that he exists? Because since then there has been a huge number of different gods pop up in discussion and they are usually abandoned and other gods pop up.

Currently God seems be in retreat. In the distant past he had a huge number of gaps to fill and as science started to fill those in God got smaller and further away, until we end up with the argument that "there must be a God because there's something instead of nothing".

That seems like a vanishing little blink on the far distant horizon. Certainly not the Greatest Concept that Could Ever Be Understood by All of Creation.

And it doesn't tell me one thing about this God. Does he/she/it even care that I exist? Does it want worship? Does it want me to eat lobster or not? Does it mind if I wear mixed fibers?

 

[Eledhan]

Yes, that would be a very good question, and one that I believe is pointing toward a Creator.

But, without matter, there would be no gravity, so, I bypassed the laws of physics, because most of them have much to do with energy and matter. Besides, laws of physics are often difficult to understand for those of us who have not had college training as a scientist. (I have taken college physical science, so I know some) My post is designed to prove that there must be something outside of these laws that caused the matter and energy to exist in the first place. The laws simply govern how they act, not where they came from.

However, that would have been my next line of questioning...how did the laws of physics become so fine-tuned to permit life? (I have some information on this, but I don't have it with me, so I'll have to get to the laws of physics some other time)

 

[Eledhan]

These are all really good questions. And it is reasonable to assume no one knows and no one may ever know. The next big question is: why propose "god"?

If God did these things then is this the last incontrovertible indication that he exists? Because since then there has been a huge number of different gods pop up in discussion and they are usually abandoned and other gods pop up.

Currently God seems be in retreat. In the distant past he had a huge number of gaps to fill and as science started to fill those in God got smaller and further away, until we end up with the argument that "there must be a God because there's something instead of nothing".

That seems like a vanishing little blink on the far distant horizon. Certainly not the Greatest Concept that Could Ever Be Understood by All of Creation.

And it doesn't tell me one thing about this God. Does he/she/it even care that I exist? Does it want worship? Does it want me to eat lobster or not? Does it mind if I wear mixed fibers?

Okay, first, I was asking for answers to my questions.

Since you can't answer my questions, let me ask another one...

Do you agree with the statement that matter, time and space all had a beginning at some point in the past? This does not take into consideration how far into the past or anything of that nature. I am simply asking if you think those three things had a beginning.

 

[Eledhan]

BTW, I plan on addressing the other things you mentioned in your post, just not now...

I believe we have to be on the same page first, and we obviously are not.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

If there is no foiwer explain X.

As if "God" explained anything.

 

[LittleNipper]

These are all really good questions. And it is reasonable to assume no one knows and no one may ever know. The next big question is: why propose "god"?

If God did these things then is this the last incontrovertible indication that he exists? Because since then there has been a huge number of different gods pop up in discussion and they are usually abandoned and other gods pop up.

Currently God seems be in retreat. In the distant past he had a huge number of gaps to fill and as science started to fill those in God got smaller and further away, until we end up with the argument that "there must be a God because there's something instead of nothing".

That seems like a vanishing little blink on the far distant horizon. Certainly not the Greatest Concept that Could Ever Be Understood by All of Creation.

And it doesn't tell me one thing about this God. Does he/she/it even care that I exist? Does it want worship? Does it want me to eat lobster or not? Does it mind if I wear mixed fibers?

GOD wishes you to be a temple of GOD's HOLY SPIRIT. As such, GOD wants you to be as healty, as pure, and as good a representative of HIM as you possibly can be through the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[Contracelsus]

GOD wishes you to be a temple of GOD's HOLY SPIRIT. As such, GOD wants you to be as healty, as pure, and as good a representative of HIM as you possibly can be through the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT.

I don't think you got what I was talking about there.

 

[FishFace]

Why is this so difficult to a logical mind?

My first question is this...

If there is no God, and all we have to go by are the laws of physics, then where did all the matter in the universe come from?

Second question...

If there is no God, where did energy come from?

Third question...

If there is no God, is there any way for something to come from nothing?

In response to my own questions, I have to say "I don't have the slightest idea" to each one. Now, I realize that I am not the most intelligent person on the planet, so if anyone has a simple, concise answer with scientific proof of bringing matter or energy from a vaccuum, then I would love to hear about it.

I also would like to know how you can have a vaccuum without the idea of "space", which is considered to be one of the things created in the "Big Bang Theory" along with matter and time.

So, ultimately my question is this...

Is there any possible way to explain the origins of the universe using purely natural means?

I say there's not...it's impossible for something to come from nothing. You can't have space just appear. And there's no such thing as physics creating time.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you can't have space just appear, then why can you have God just appear?

And you're in the wrong forum - try General Apologetics, down the hall.

 

[FishFace]

a more important question to me is, where did the laws of physics come from?

We already know the law of gravity works, and we already know how it works, what we dont know is why it works.

No... no we don't. Any idea how to find out?

 

[Eledhan]

If there is no foiwer explain X.

As if "God" explained anything.

Please, that is not helpful...

I have a route I am going to take, but first anyone who can answer those questions without using "god" as the answer, I would love to hear from them. All other points are going to be made further down the road. This is not a doctoral discertation.

 

[Contracelsus]

Okay, first, I was asking for answers to my questions.

I don't think it matters what you "wanted" on a discussion forum. We all would like those questions answered...I doubt anyone can.

Since you can't answer my questions, let me ask another one...

Do you agree with the statement that matter, time and space all had a beginning at some point in the past? This does not take into consideration how far into the past or anything of that nature. I am simply asking if you think those three things had a beginning.

I hoped I was rather clear in my initial response that I don't know and probably no one knows.

Why would a universe that existed forever into the past be any less strange than a god who existed forever into the past?

Wasn't it Aquinas who proposed the "first uncaused cause" argument?

Why does it have to be God? Presumably God had to have a beginning? If he didn't why did the universe have to have a beginning? If one has to and the other doesn't it's a case of "special pleading".

We don't really have much to compare with. We aren't really able to see outside of the universe and space-time to get a good sample set.

 

[Eledhan]

If you can't have space just appear, then why can you have God just appear?

And you're in the wrong forum - try General Apologetics, down the hall.

First, I am in the correct forum...Creation is exactly what I'm talking about, and I'm in the Creation and Evolution forum. This is not remotely related to the topic at hand though.

Second.

I am not saying that God just appeared...and no one has bothered to answer my questions posted later...

I'll state it again for everyone's benefit...

Was there a beginning to space, time, and matter at any point in the past?

That is my question...if you are going to refute any of these, please do so. If not, then agree with the question, and I have another one.

I'm going somewhere, I promise.

 

[Contracelsus]

If you can't have space just appear, then why can you have God just appear?

And you're in the wrong forum - try General Apologetics, down the hall.

I don't know that this is not applicable to CREVO. Origins seem to come up a lot. Why not push it back to origns of everything?

Since these debates are all inherently religion-based vs science-based this would seem to fit here reasonably well.

People will always be tempted to go ab initio in their debates on origins of life by trying to better understand the foundations of their assumption of God. And Aquinas keeps popping up either in this form or in teleology in general. So in a sense it all fits into place.

 

[atomweaver]

Why is this so difficult to a logical mind?

My first question is this...

If there is no God, and all we have to go by are the laws of physics, then where did all the matter in the universe come from?

Why do you presume that matter had to come from somewhere?

Second question...

If there is no God, where did energy come from?

Why do you presume that energy had to come from somewhere?

Third question...

If there is no God, is there any way for something to come from nothing?

Why do you presume that there ever was 'nothing'?

In response to my own questions, I have to say "I don't have the slightest idea" to each one. Now, I realize that I am not the most intelligent person on the planet, so if anyone has a simple, concise answer with scientific proof of bringing matter or energy from a vaccuum, then I would love to hear about it.

Your questions themselves assume a bias form the off, that there was a start to the universe. Given the current state of things, we can only ever investigate back to the point of the most recent singularity (ie starting point for the Big Expansion aka Big Bang)

I also would like to know how you can have a vaccuum without the idea of "space", which is considered to be one of the things created in the "Big Bang Theory" along with matter and time.

This touches on the implied bias in your first string of questions. What we know about our universe extends back in time to the Singularity, before which the state of the universe is un-knowable, but to presume that un-knowable = nothing is just that, a presumption...

So, ultimately my question is this...

Is there any possible way to explain the origins of the universe using purely natural means?

I hope the above clarifies our current limitations. As for the future, who knows? Someone might find a means of investigating the state of things pre-Singularity...

I say there's not...it's impossible for something to come from nothing. You can't have space just appear. And there's no such thing as physics creating time.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The only 'wrong' is rooted in your fundamental assumption; that the universe must have a beginning and an end. Why make that assumption?

 

[Contracelsus]

appeared...and no one has bothered to answer my questions posted later...

I'll state it again for everyone's benefit...

Was there a beginning to space, time, and matter at any point in the past?

Didn't FishFace and I both point out that this question doesn't necessitate an either-or response?

If you think Space-time-matter had to have a beginning, why didn't God? If one must then surely you must have some point that the other must not?

That is my question...if you are going to refute any of these, please do so. If not, then agree with the question, and I have another one.

I'm going somewhere, I promise.

You know what I dislike? I dislike people trying to "lead" the discussion and going about it like a border collie herding sheep. You won't get very far with educated people trying to "herd" their responses. If you have a point, make it. If you want to direct the conversation, then I recommend you have it with yourself or with your congregation where no one will question your fundamental assumptions since that seems to be causing you some amount of consternation here.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Please, that is not helpful...

I have a route I am going to take, but first anyone who can answer those questions without using "god" as the answer, I would love to hear from them. All other points are going to be made further down the road. This is not a doctoral discertation.

Why is that not helpful? Saying "God did it" is as meaningful as saying, what, "foiwer did it."

There, I answered all your questions without using the word "god" - by swapping it with another meaningless non-explanation.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Was there a beginning to space, time, and matter at any point in the past?

There was no time when the universe did not exist, as time is an inseparable part of the univere. Losing the universe, means losing time.

So, it doesn't make sense to posit that at one time there was no universe and at another time there was "poof" or "Be!" and at yet another time there was a universe.

The universe as a whole isn't subject to a part of itself. Logical, huh?

 

[Eledhan]

Why is that not helpful? Saying "God did it" is as meaningful as saying, what, "foiwer did it."

There, I answered all your questions without using the word "god" - by swapping it with another meaningless non-explanation.

Okay, thank you...I realize what foiwer is...

I believe that we as humans can make some determination on the characteristics of this "foiwer"

This only works however if we can all agree that time, space, and matter had a beginning. But, as it seems, the general avoidance of this assumption of beginnings will be that there is no reason to believe that the "most recent singularity" (quoted from another member) is actually "nothing". Okay, well, if that's the general consensus...

Where did the singularity come from?

You don't know...of course...well, that just about does it then.

In the event that it is impossible to know, we must revert to theories. My theory is this.

The universe did have a beginning. This beginning is whatever you want to call it, Big Bang or whatever. For the purposes of this discussion I am not trying to put a timetable on the cosmic events. My theory simply says there was a beginning to the universe as we know it, and my theory also says that there must have been a point somehwere in the past when matter, space, and time first began to exist. If matter, space, and time all began to exist, then what caused them to exist?

I believe that "foiwer" caused them to exist. And what exactly is "foiwer"? Well, if "foiwer" caused matter to exist, then "foiwer" must not be bound by matter. If "foiwer" also caused space to exist, then "foiwer" must not be bound by space. If "foiwer" caused time to exist, then "foiwer" must not be bound by time. In this sense, "foiwer" is not bound by matter, space, or time; and yet can create and shape all three of these. Thus, my definition (albeit it is a theory) of "foiwer" is very similar to the definition of the Christian God's attributes.

Therefore, although this is simply a theory and has not "proven" God, it is better than any other theory I have heard. If someone has another theory, then please post it, or at least post a link to which I can read it.

That is my entire point, as has been requested. Sorry for the delay or for attempthing to "shepherd" the discussion, but a response to "is 1 plus 1 really 2?" of "It doesn't matter because red is green" is completely off topic and doesn't accomplish anything worthwhile is a simple distraction tactic commonly used in order to avoid the issue at hand.