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Protoevangelium of James

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would you attempt to eat fruit from the burning bush?

...it is the Righteous who will dwell with everlasting burnings (Isaiah 33:14) for GOD is a consuming fire [to sin and of LOVE](Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29) and HIS ministers a flame of fire (Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7) and HIS Throne of Fire (Daniel 7:9; Revelation 4:5) and HIS speech fire (2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8) for HE is a purifying fire (Malachi 3:3) and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire (Revelation 15:2), not so the wicked(they are burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished; Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9, 21:4.)
 
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SolomonVII

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Gnostic ideals about sex do not desire procreation of flesh. Virginity becomes a supreme virtue for the Gnostic anti-Christs, for it most certainly leads to the cessation of life in the flesh.

God of the Old Covenant/ Old Testament is creator of the world of flesh, and is an evil demiurge according to Marcion and the Gnostics.
His God, Christ of the New Testament, shuns and avoids sex as the higher path.

Gnosticism figures in prominently to the early church. Orthodoxy of course rejects it in the extremes, but the question is how much has infilitrated the original apostolic teachings through outside non-apostolic sources, and the culture that they grew out of.; sources such as the very popular PofJ.

The PofJ by the way is not usually associated with Gnosticism according to most of my readings anyway, but when compared to Gnostic ideals, its soft(or not so soft) Gnosticism becomes apparent.

This ,by the way, is not just a problem of gnostic creep into the more tradition-based forms of Christianity, though the cult of virginity is no longer as prominent even in the tradition-based forms as it was in early Christianity. It canbecome problem with Christianity in general, as the battle against carnal desires of the flesh become a battle against stinking flesh and the body itself.

It is a suptle point being made here, where being in the flesh might mean being ruled by the carnal desires of the flesh, but it is not the flesh, but the voice of the serpent speaking through our fleshly desires, which is where the evil lies.

Virginity cult not only seeks to deny fleshly desires, but more than this, the body itself, procreation even.

The purity of Mary simply does not lie not in abstaining from sexual relations with her husband. Her immaculate purity lies in her abundance of grace and her intimate and personal relationship with the Trinity.

Saying that she did not have sexual relationships with Joseph in no way adds to her purity, or her chasteness. If anything, it takes away from that, for our relationships with God are most fully expressed in the love that we show to each other.

Husband and wife, and the one-flesh union is sacramental too, and fully sanctioned by God and Church, after all.

It is no coincidence that cult of virginity is associated with pseudo-apostolic teachings, and gnostic texts. Suffice it say, that no matter how popular the cult of virginity was very early in church history , how much it increasingly became proclaimed as dogma by the early ecclesiastical authorities of the fourth and fifth centuries, gnostic influences were always strong in the church too, always were present, even until now.

That is why it is important to contemplate the fact that this is according to no known apostolic teaching, this idea that the brothers of Jesus were not brothers in the flesh, this associated idea that Mary was the prototype for the Virginity cults of Christianity.

John forewarns us of anti-christ. The teachings may well be soft and seductive, even pristine and beautiful, but virginity is no a teaching that grows out of the faith of Jesus and the Jews. It is very much foreign to that soil.

That is important to at least contemplate.

It is also important to contemplate how for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. It is not coincidence that Our Immaculate Madonna has been now followed by Madonna in our age of reaction, and Lady Gaga too.
 
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Fireinfolding

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would you attempt to eat fruit from the burning bush?

Not sure how you are making the comparison, between Marys virginity and the burning bush? I would hate to assume there.

It also says...

Exodus 3:2... behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Exodus 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

I dont know where you are making the connection between the fruit of a bush and Mary (unless its plainly obvious to what you are referring to?)
 
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Standing Up

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To use this For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith

Is a bad example. Eve IS NOT ALWAYS referred to as "Virgin Eve"

Either is Mary, as it is written:

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

So, good example.
 
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Uphill Battle

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how utterly silly this whole thing is.

1) EV supporters=holy tradition=reason to believe in it.
2) non EV supporters=no same tradition=no reason to believe in it.

all the other evidence is extraneous at best, and serves for polemics. That's really what this is about though? Spitting at someone for their beliefs in something... or their lack of belief in something.
 
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Standing Up

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how utterly silly this whole thing is.

1) EV supporters=holy tradition=reason to believe in it.
2) non EV supporters=no same tradition=no reason to believe in it.

all the other evidence is extraneous at best, and serves for polemics. That's really what this is about though? Spitting at someone for their beliefs in something... or their lack of belief in something.

No, it's about the PoJ. It's been shown its contradictions to scripture, the gnostic elements, the rejection by the church.

Christianity does have doctrines.
 
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Uphill Battle

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No, it's about the PoJ. It's been shown its contradictions to scripture, the gnostic elements, the rejection by the church.

Christianity does have doctrines.


Whose Christianity?
 
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Standing Up

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SolomonVII said:
-sniip-

The PofJ by the way is not usually associated with Gnosticism according to most of my readings anyway, but when compared to Gnostic ideals, its soft(or not so soft) Gnosticism becomes apparent.

This ,by the way, is not just a problem of gnostic creep into the more tradition-based forms of Christianity, though the cult of virginity is no longer as prominent even in the tradition-based forms as it was in early Christianity. It canbecome problem with Christianity in general, as the battle against carnal desires of the flesh become a battle against stinking flesh and the body itself.
-snip-.

To me, here's the connection. Tertullian:

"But certain disciples [Marcion's Apelles?] compelled to be wiser than their teacher, concede to Christ real flesh, without effect, however, on their denial of His nativity. He might have had, they say, a flesh which was not at all born. ..."

ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

That idea is from the PoJ. The light recedes, the young child appears, it takes the breast, Mary remains intact.
 
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Uphill Battle

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Well, we know those who deny Christ came in the flesh are anti-christ. You don't agree?


I'm not buying in to your game to try and call Orthodox/Catholic anti-Christ.

nice try though. Try that on someone dumber.
 
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Standing Up

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I'm not buying in to your game to try and call Orthodox/Catholic anti-Christ.

nice try though. Try that on someone dumber.

Eh, what? It sounded as though you disagreed that Christianity has doctrine. It does. I'm sure RC, EO, and P would agree that Christ came in the flesh through a normal birth.
 
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SolomonVII

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I'm not buying in to your game to try and call Orthodox/Catholic anti-Christ.

nice try though. Try that on someone dumber.
Gnostic is anti-Christ per John as Scripture, is it not?
The term is being used in the Scriptural sense and not in the provocative sense of Omen and Damien
I would have to look that up to be sure, but my less than perfect recall is that John was aiming his citicisms directly at the gnostic elements of Christianity that were there from the time of the apostles.
This is an early apostacy and pervasive, coincident with the apostles, but not of the apostles.
 
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Uphill Battle

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Eh, what? It sounded as though you disagreed that Christianity has doctrine. It does. I'm sure RC, EO, and P would agree that Christ came in the flesh through a normal birth.

the point where I get fuzzy, is where you get justification to chastise people when they have tradition that doesn't exclude normal birth... but that things may have been a little different than what you assume.

Gnostic is anti-Christ per John as Scripture, is it not?
The term is being used in the Scriptural sense and not in the provocative sense of Omen and Damien
I would have to look that up to be sure, but my less than perfect recall is that John was aiming his citicisms directly at the gnostic elements of Christianity that were there from the time of the apostles.
This is an early apostacy and pervasive, coincident with the apostles, but not of the apostles.
I think my point flew over your head so far that it's landing in Chicago before you heard the engines.

Our Christianity.
All of ours.
meaning what?
 
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SolomonVII

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I think my point flew over your head so far that it's landing in Chicago before you heard the engines.
There is no need to be rude Uphill. You are not that much of an intellectual superior to me. If I missed your point, show me how

meaning what?
Meaning that we believe in the one, catholic church, and have all signed onto that in order to join this forum. I am not pointing fingers at this point, for the gnostic elements of PoJare beginning to be acknowledged by people on all sides now. This gnostic encroachment and battle against the flesh is not exclusive to any one form of Christianity either.
 
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Standing Up

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the point where I get fuzzy, is where you get justification to chastise people when they have tradition that doesn't exclude normal birth... but that things may have been a little different than what you assume.

I'm all for normal birth---water, baby, placenta. It's this gnostic teaching I'm against.

And by little and little that light withdrew itself until the young child appeared: and it went and took the breast of its mother Mary.
-PoJ-

This young child who's able to take the breast, this abnormal birth left Mary intact. It's the later east gate metaphor (birth from out her side as the new Eve.) Christ didn't open the womb. It remained shut.

In turn this false teaching is found here.

"But certain disciples [Marcion's Apelles?] compelled to be wiser than their teacher, concede to Christ real flesh, without effect, however, on their denial of His nativity. He might have had, they say, a flesh which was not at all born. ..."

ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

IOW, the most likely author of PoJ is Apelles who supposedly agrees Christ had flesh, but denied the normal birth. That's the PoJ as shown.

From the recently closed thread, there are people who agree with the abnormal birth, but I'd guess they don't really know its gnostic source, rather than the scriptural normal birth.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Not sure how you are making the comparison, between Marys virginity and the burning bush? I would hate to assume there.

It also says...

Exodus 3:2... behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Exodus 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

I dont know where you are making the connection between the fruit of a bush and Mary (unless its plainly obvious to what you are referring to?)

Mary is likened to the burning bush in our liturgical texts, as she contained God himself and was not consumed.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Standing Up Well, we know those who deny Christ came in the flesh are anti-christ. You don't agree?
Are you accusing some of us here of denying that he did? If not, why are you bringing it up?
Getting kind of testy are we? :p

http://www.christianforums.com/t7537749/
Will The Anti-Christ Know He's The Anti-Christ

We were discussing the tribulation and the anti-Christ. The question came up will he know he's the Anti-Christ?

Most dictators represented themselves as heroes before they showed their true colors. The Bible tells us that he'll be an angel of peace for the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation. Then satan will enter him. Do you think he'll come in as a global figure sincerely wanting to unite and then falling to satan, or do you think he comes in with evil powers from the start?

The Omen trailer - YouTube
 
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