Protestants-biblically prove ONE Mediator

[thegospelisgoodnews]

No, it isn't. Buy a dictionary and use it.

Oxford dictionary 'prayer' A. a solemn request or thanksgiving to God or an object of worship...........I have no problem praying with anyone, but I do have a problem praying to anyone other than God. what are acts of religious worship, singing praises and prayer.

 

[Aeneas]

Oxford dictionary 'prayer' A. a solemn request or thanksgiving to God or an object of worship...........I have no problem praying with anyone, but I do have a problem praying to anyone other than God. what are acts of religious worship, singing praises and prayer.

Did "a solemn request" not register with you? If I go to a real estate agent and ask him to sell me a home, I have just prayed to him.

pray verb \ˈprā\

Definition of PRAY

transitive verb
1
: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2
: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1
: to make a request in a humble manner
2
: to address God or a god with adoration, c

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

No, it isn't. Buy a dictionary and use it.

1.
a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.

3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

4. a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying: the Lord's Prayer.

5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer......................looks like something considered as a form of worship to me.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

Did "a solemn request" not register with you? If I go to a real estate agent and ask him to sell me a home, I have just prayed to him.

pray verb \&#712;pr&#257;\

Definition of PRAY

transitive verb
1
: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2
: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1
: to make a request in a humble manner
2
: to address God or a god with adoration, c

tell you what lets try this! you pray to me and I'll type back if I hear you in my mind

 

[Aeneas]

1.
a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.

3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

4. a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying: the Lord's Prayer.

5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer......................looks like something considered as a form of worship to me.

I know, lets look at the full definition from dictionary.reference.com instead of just the part that agrees with you.

pray [prey] &#8194;
Origin
pray&#8194; &#8194;[prey] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2.
to offer (a prayer).
3.
to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4.
to make earnest petition to (a person).
5.
to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.


Oh snap, those don't look like worship at all, strangely.

 

[Aeneas]

tell you what lets try this! you pray to me and I'll type back if I hear you in my mind

No, I refuse to do something so mocking and degrading to the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

 

[Panevino]

tell you what lets try this! you pray to me and I'll type back if I hear you in my mind

The difference is that you are not united with Christ in the complete sense that those in heaven are. You would not be able to hear the way Moses did, unless of course the Father willed it.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

The difference is that you are not united with Christ in the complete sense that those in heaven are. You would not be able to hear the way Moses did, unless of course the Father willed it.

So do you hear back from any saint you have prayed to?

 

[Aeneas]

So do you hear back from any saint you have prayed to?

Yes, or at least I like to think I have. Prayer to the saints is powerful, you might be surprised. St. John of Kronstadt said the saints are like our older brothers and sisters and we should converse with them as people under our own roof. St. Seraphim of Sarov told his disciples that when he had passed, they should come to him when they had troubles and cry and tell him their troubles and he would listen to them. Because he would even then be alive, and be so, forevermore.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

Yes, or at least I like to think I have. Prayer to the saints is powerful, you might be surprised. St. John of Kronstadt said the saints are like our older brothers and sisters and we should converse with them as people under our own roof. St. Seraphim of Sarov told his disciples that when he had passed, they should come to him when they had troubles and cry and tell him their troubles and he would listen to them. Because he would even then be alive, and be so, forevermore.

no thanks, much like any good father, he take great pleasure in a son who comes to him for help, and finds it very insulting that his son would go to men of lesser intelligence, and righteousness for direction and help. I believe God wants His children to come to Him personally, well thats what Jesus taught.....take it or leave it, pray to imperfect humans or to a completely perfect, all knowing, all powerful God, its a pretty simple choice

 

[Panevino]

no thanks, much like any good father, he take great pleasure in a son who comes to him for help, and finds it very insulting that his son would go to men of lesser intelligence, and righteousness for direction and help. I believe God wants His children to come to Him personally, well thats what Jesus taught.....take it or leave it, pray to imperfect humans or to a completely perfect, all knowing, all powerful God, its a pretty simple choice

I hear you. And remember we are not suggesting for a minute that we/you don't go direct to the father.
Consider job42:7-8

But remember when we are saying pray to saints, we are not worshiping the saint, (while you may consider it to be, it is not what is in the heart)The words spoken are to a bother/sister/mother in Christ, seeking their prayer for us also.

It does not mean we are Bypassing God the Father or Son.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

I hear you. And remember we are not suggesting for a minute that we/you don't go direct to the father.
Consider job42:7-8

But remember when we are saying pray to saints, we are not worshiping the saint, (while you may consider it to be, it is not what is in the heart)The words spoken are to a bother/sister/mother in Christ, seeking their prayer for us also.

It does not mean we are Bypassing God the Father or Son.

yes I realize you don't consider prayer worship, but you are speaking to spirits of Christians, much like Saul trying to contact Samuel, yes these folks are very much alive, as all who are in Christ will never die, but speaking to spirits of departed humans is a communication that is a form of necromancy, If you want to do it, thats fine but since the old testiment, God has always forbidden speaking with spirits of people who left the world of the living. whether they were evil, or whether they were good saints or prophets like Samuel..........but maybe you think that was old testiment law, and that today now God wants you to communicate with passed on spirits, who dwell with Him......not sure where you get that idea

 

[Panevino]

yes I realize you don't consider prayer worship,

prayer to jesus is intended as worship, seeking intercession from saints is not intended worship. [bless and do not curse]

you are speaking to spirits of Christians,

its not a conversation, we merely ask them to pray for us also.

[bless and do not curse]much like Saul trying to contact Samuel,

this is, to me, different, saul wanted to talk to Samuel because he thought God had abandoned him. [bless and do not curse]Sauls action is certainly not done "in" Christ as a member of His body, that's is clear. He is trying to achieve something apart from God. Seeking intercession is very different as it is ultimately still seeking Gods mercy through intercession. It's intent does not end with the saint but points to God.
Sauls action /intent is very different.
Which explains why it was fine for Moses to communicate with Jesus on earth, and John and elder in Rev. And for Peter to address tabitha. [bless and do not curse]Peter was not being a wizard, or Neceomancer he was calling tabitha through /in Christ.

yes these folks are very much alive, as all who are in Christ will never die, but speaking to spirits of departed humans is a communication that is a form of necromancy, If you want to do it, thats fine but since the old testiment, God has always forbidden speaking with spirits of people who left the world of the living.

jesus in flesh spoke to moses. [bless and do not curse]John speaks to elder and hears all in heaven and earth simultaneously

whether they were evil, or whether they were good saints or prophets like Samuel..........but maybe you think that was old testiment law, and that today now God wants you to communicate with passed on spirits, who dwell with Him......not sure where you get that idea

the necromancy (Kjv) in deu 18:10-11 is among the context of witches, wizards and fortune tellers.
The words that are translated as necromancy are used elsewhere in the bible and illustrate an action that seeks to bypass god or cheat in some way.
Seeking intercession from saints is done humbly and with hope not certainty and is done with in Christ. It is very different.

2kings21:LORD. 6 And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke [him] to anger.

1pet3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison
This is obviously not necromancy


Consider these

1john3:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

 

[rickfleming]

yes I realize you don't consider prayer worship, but you are speaking to spirits of Christians, much like Saul trying to contact Samuel, yes these folks are very much alive, as all who are in Christ will never die, but speaking to spirits of departed humans is a communication that is a form of necromancy, If you want to do it, thats fine but since the old testiment, God has always forbidden speaking with spirits of people who left the world of the living. whether they were evil, or whether they were good saints or prophets like Samuel..........but maybe you think that was old testiment law, and that today now God wants you to communicate with passed on spirits, who dwell with Him......not sure where you get that idea

I realize that the conversation so far has been mainly Catholic and Protestants, and I've been in Eastern Orthodox studies for a little under a year and was Chrismated in the Antiochian Orthodox (the same Church of Antioch like in the Bible) just a few weeks ago and of course Catholics and us Orthodox don't agree on everything... But, for an alternate ancient point of view, forgive if I speak in error of Orthodox views, it is why I mentioned that I am, as we all are, very early on our road of learning...

Firstly, in the OT, death still existed. In the deutrocanon there are references to intercessions, I believe in the Maccabees... although I may be wrong. Honestly I don't know how it would play in since in the OT death still existed... more experienced Orthodox could probably answer that.

Christ destroyed death by death, by dying on the cross, decending into Sheol/Hades, and freeing all who were trapped there. After this point death doesn't exist.

By trying to tie praying for the intercessions of Saints and Mary to necromancy is very close to attempting to deny that Christ destroyed death. It is not necromancy because they aren't dead! That's the point, Christ did what we could not do. Adam and Eve introduced the sickness of sin into the world, which the result of the sickness of sin is death. God became incarnate, taking on our human nature, and overcame death. When Christ died on the cross and descended into Sheol, Sheol could not contain God. We could not do this on our own, and death became a tool of evil and a main component of why people sin. How many people sin because they are afraid of passing from their current earthly lives? They need more of this or want more of that... me me me and more more more, need to gather this all up before I die, only one life to live, etc... What kind of evil would someone do if they think either I do this or I "die".

To attempt to try to relate praying for the intercessions and help of Saints/Mary to necromancy is to downplay one of the most important things that Christ did. Destroying death!

When I was attending a Lutheran church they prayed to God for those who were sick, or those who's names had been added to a Prayer Request. Why would someone need that at all? Of course it is a normal thing to do. Asking Saints for intercession is the same principle, except unlike your pastor praying they are in the position where they can pray with the strength of the Will of God without the temptations and the evils of the World to intercede upon their prayers.

I apologize for jumping in on the middle of the discussion... but it felt like this wasn't fully explained. Quite possibly I haven't fully explained it either. I came from a protestant background, raised protestant, then Lutheran after meeting my now wife, and still things didn't add up when you actually credence to what Christ said... it finally did in the ancient Orthodox faith and we both converted.

 

[Incariol]

yes I realize you don't consider prayer worship, but you are speaking to spirits of Christians, much like Saul trying to contact Samuel, yes these folks are very much alive, as all who are in Christ will never die, but speaking to spirits of departed humans is a communication that is a form of necromancy, If you want to do it, thats fine but since the old testiment, God has always forbidden speaking with spirits of people who left the world of the living. whether they were evil, or whether they were good saints or prophets like Samuel..........but maybe you think that was old testiment law, and that today now God wants you to communicate with passed on spirits, who dwell with Him......not sure where you get that idea

I think I can stand doing something that you have decided to arbitrarily label "necromancy" with great equanimity.

 

[steve_bakr]

I realize that the conversation so far has been mainly Catholic and Protestants, and I've been in Eastern Orthodox studies for a little under a year and was Chrismated in the Antiochian Orthodox (the same Church of Antioch like in the Bible) just a few weeks ago and of course Catholics and us Orthodox don't agree on everything... But, for an alternate ancient point of view, forgive if I speak in error of Orthodox views, it is why I mentioned that I am, as we all are, very early on our road of learning...

Firstly, in the OT, death still existed. In the deutrocanon there are references to intercessions, I believe in the Maccabees... although I may be wrong. Honestly I don't know how it would play in since in the OT death still existed... more experienced Orthodox could probably answer that.

Christ destroyed death by death, by dying on the cross, decending into Sheol/Hades, and freeing all who were trapped there. After this point death doesn't exist.

By trying to tie praying for the intercessions of Saints and Mary to necromancy is very close to attempting to deny that Christ destroyed death. It is not necromancy because they aren't dead! That's the point, Christ did what we could not do. Adam and Eve introduced the sickness of sin into the world, which the result of the sickness of sin is death. God became incarnate, taking on our human nature, and overcame death. When Christ died on the cross and descended into Sheol, Sheol could not contain God. We could not do this on our own, and death became a tool of evil and a main component of why people sin. How many people sin because they are afraid of passing from their current earthly lives? They need more of this or want more of that... me me me and more more more, need to gather this all up before I die, only one life to live, etc... What kind of evil would someone do if they think either I do this or I "die".

To attempt to try to relate praying for the intercessions and help of Saints/Mary to necromancy is to downplay one of the most important things that Christ did. Destroying death!

When I was attending a Lutheran church they prayed to God for those who were sick, or those who's names had been added to a Prayer Request. Why would someone need that at all? Of course it is a normal thing to do. Asking Saints for intercession is the same principle, except unlike your pastor praying they are in the position where they can pray with the strength of the Will of God without the temptations and the evils of the World to intercede upon their prayers.

I apologize for jumping in on the middle of the discussion... but it felt like this wasn't fully explained. Quite possibly I haven't fully explained it either. I came from a protestant background, raised protestant, then Lutheran after meeting my now wife, and still things didn't add up when you actually credence to what Christ said... it finally did in the ancient Orthodox faith and we both converted.

I think your comments are very appropriate to the topic. The situation we have now--with Christ having destroyed the barrier between life and death--is what Catholics call the Communion of Saints, spoken of in the Apostles' Creed.

 

[xfisherman]

So we have non Roman Catholics,and non Orthodox praying directly to God or to Jesus and on the other side of the fence we have RC,Orthodox praying to Mary and the Saints and the Angels.Hehehe.Well I will know what the correct answer is.......

 

[steve_bakr]

So we have non Roman Catholics,and non Orthodox praying directly to God or to Jesus and on the other side of the fence we have RC,Orthodox praying to Mary and the Saints and the Angels.Hehehe.Well I will know what the correct answer is.......

It's as if you have not read the previous posts.

 

[xfisherman]

too long to read.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

Can anyone help me with a tough-to-beat defense of ONE Mediator? I know and have practically memorized the passages in Hebrews, but have problems disputing Revelation 5:8 with my RomanCatholic friend. He believes its okay to pray to Mary and use saints as intercessors. I just can't believe RC's think that its okay when the BIBLE specifically says ONE GOD, ONE Mediator! Why do RC's believe dead people can hear them, angels can hear them and Mary, who is obviously dead, can hear them? My heart breaks for them. I wish I could just convince my friends. I know, I know, God has a plan. Thankfully!!!

He does have a plan, He calls to them to "come out of her my people"....but He's calling to protestants to, to come out of this false institutionalized hierchy of religion and return to a more biblically based foundation of church practice and faith. these grand facades have a look of being righteous, but they soak up all the income and offerings maintaining them and the leaders in lavish lifestyles. this is far from the church we see written in the pages of the bible. never was it Jesus intention to build what we see as the church today.......Its why what John saw, so amazed him!.....he couldn't believe it either