Protestants-biblically prove ONE Mediator

[myhopeisfound]

(Sorry, I meant to quote "Bob Carrabio" here, but I just lost it and don't know how to get it back...I stink at this quoting stuff)

I agree with you here...about how it comes across like God doesn't love you perfectly. I think most RC's would disagree with that though, although like I said, I agree with you that that is how it comes across. But, I think it is really the Roman Catholic doctrine of "theosis" (partaking in the divine nature) that is questionable. I believe it is a misinterpretation of 2 Peter 1:4. Their catechism is quoted in this thread by Darklite and it specifically says, so that man "may become God". I'm still trying to figure out what this part of the RC catechism means in it's entirety. When Adam and Eve were created, perfect and good by God (b/f the Fall) they did NOT have all of God's attributes, Adam was not omniscient. Being "partakers of the divine nature" does not mean we are able to hear prayers when we die (...yes, RC's, we are alive in Christ, I agree!) We are not made omniscient. When I read 2 Peter and combine it with Romans 8, specifically the later verses, I can only believe we do NOT "become God" or little "gods", but we ARE conformed to the LIKENESS of Christ, becoming heirs of the kingdom, but NOT becoming "God"...

Now, for the part that disturbs me about Mary. The part where I see that the RCC is denegrading Christ without the mistake of simply misinterpreting Scripture:

"And [Mary] is truly a mediatress of peace between sinners and God. Sinners receive pardon by...Mary alone." "Mary is our life...Mary in obtaining this grace for sinners by her intercession, thus restores them to life." "He fails and is lost who has not recourse to Mary." "Mary...is called the gate of Heaven because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through Her." "The Way of Salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary", " and since our salvation is in the hands of Mary...He who is protected by Mary will be saved, he who is not will be lost."

And my favorite:
"We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary, than by invoking that of Jesus."

Hmmmmmmm....

The conceptual PROBLEM with this should be totally OBVIOUS, even to the most casual observer. Jesus said to pray to FATHER in HIS name (John 14:13,14). The Catholic Church teaches the INSUFFICIENCY of that approach, and proposes its own "Work around" to increase our chances of getting what we want, since praying according to Jesus' instructions apparently isn't "Enough".

Once again, I agree with you, it definatley comes off that Jesus' instructions in Matthew 6:5-15 are not "enough". But the RCC will bring up all the verses in the Bible that tell us to pray for eachother because they believe that we are connected with those Saints in heaven, who ARE able to hear us b/c they have "become partakers in the divine nature" and have "become God". While I believe we ARE connected to the saints in heaven b/c we ARE all brothers and sisters in Christ, I don't believe those in heaven have taken on the omniscient attribute of God...and I certainly don't believe we "become God".

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

You are addressing this entirely in the wrong fashion. Catholicism teaches that there is one mediator between God and man, and that mediator is Christ. Here is a search that shows various paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church: http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=mediator&xsubmit=Search&s=SS.

As for the communion of Saints, it is taught that they are alive in Christ. Christ conquered death, did he not? The unity of the Body of Christ does not end with physical death. The Saints, as you said, are intercessors. They are not mediators. Praying to saint actually means you are asking the Saint to pray for you to God.

This is how its done, pay careful attention! this same practice of renaming a tradition to make it OK, such as veneration, is not worship, even though in all appearences, such as praying, bowing down and kissing these statues, is not worship according to catholics. This is also used to disquise who actually is Mediator, Its simply renamed intercessors, and while they are correct in the dead saints not being dead but with the Lord, there is no biblical text that gives any credance to them hearing or answering any prayers, In fact even Christ declares that we go straight to the top, and pray to the Father who art in heaven.

 

[steve_bakr]

This is how its done, pay careful attention! this same practice of renaming a tradition to make it OK, such as veneration, is not worship, even though in all appearences, such as praying, bowing down and kissing these statues, is not worship according to catholics. This is also used to disquise who actually is Mediator, Its simply renamed intercessors, and while they are correct in the dead saints not being dead but with the Lord, there is no biblical text that gives any credance to them hearing or answering any prayers, In fact even Christ declares that we go straight to the top, and pray to the Father who art in heaven.

Do you ever ask someone to pray for you? Do you ever value the prayers of a certain person because of their sanctity?

 

[Panevino]

This is how its done, pay careful attention! this same practice of renaming a tradition to make it OK, such as veneration, is not worship, even though in all appearences, such as praying, bowing down and kissing these statues, is not worship according to catholics. This is also used to disquise who actually is Mediator, Its simply renamed intercessors, and while they are correct in the dead saints not being dead but with the Lord, there is no biblical text that gives any credance to them hearing or answering any prayers, In fact even Christ declares that we go straight to the top, and pray to the Father who art in heaven.

Mat19:27-28/Rev4:4
Rev5:8/ps141:2
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Ps103:21, ps148:2

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

Do you ever ask someone to pray for you? Do you ever value the prayers of a certain person because of their sanctity?

yes people who still have flesh and blood, we are never to speak to those who have departed our earthly plane, thats called necromancy, thats wrong

 

[Panevino]

yes people who still have flesh and blood, we are never to speak to those who have departed our earthly plane, thats called necromancy, thats wrong

Deu34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Luke9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white29 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

Acts9:37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid [her] in an upper chamber..........40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning [him] to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

Rev1:1.......His servant John 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw........7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
(see Mat19:27-28/Rev4:4)
Rev5:13

 

[Clearly]

POST ONE OF THREE


REGARDING THE CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE SPIRITS OF MEN ABIDE AFTER DEATH AND WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT


Myhopeisfound said in post # 42 It it historical fact that the doctrine of purgatory wasn't established until 593AD.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Loco explained in post #43 : Purgatory didn't become Canon before then but it was always practiced and believed.
Dark Lite explained in post # 44 : “Purgatory has its roots in history. You will find this is true for all doctrines of the Catholic Church. This is the same with all the other practices you mention except the Apocrypha.

Though I believe that earliest Judao-Christian concept of a world of spirits was a bit different than modern Catholicism describes it, I do feel that Loco and Dark Lite are correct regarding the specific claim that Early Judao-Christians believed in a world where the spirits of the dead were cognizant, communicative, and where they continued to be exposed to Gospel principles. Right or wrong, the early Judao-christians themselves describe this doctrine in some detail in the early texts.

However, there is a difficulty caused by translation since, i[FONT=&quot]n describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion.
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For example the description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2En 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “today shalt thou be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven. The greek term "παραδιζο" referred to the place of gardens just outside of the castle of the king.

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[FONT=&quot]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip) [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.

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[FONT=&quot]The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). But more on this later.

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[FONT=&quot]In the earliest descriptions I can find of this doctrine, it is not simply a place for the evil or uncommitted, but rather in the earliest model of this doctrine, ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)
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[FONT=&quot]
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) . [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).
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[FONT=&quot]The LDS describe this spirit world and, speak of these spirits who "mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance, For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage." In such a context, it was often referred to as a "prison" of sorts.


In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
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[FONT=&quot]POST TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS
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[Clearly]

[FONT=&quot]POST TWO OF THREE[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another[/FONT][FONT=&quot] as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood (as the Latter Day Saints claim), that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of the two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.


Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose. The ancient saying in this context of moral change occurring in men is that “God is a dyer. As the good dyes, which are called “true,” dissolve with the things dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has dyed. Since his dyes are immortal, they are immortal by means of his colors. Now God dips what he dips in water." (The gospel of Phillip) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
The doctrine of the descensus is foreign to many protestant churches, but anciently, the Judao-Christians spoke of the descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks he risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one) [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected[/FONT][FONT=&quot] with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc). Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two) [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel to individuals such as the sons of Rabi Simeon, and many testified of gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.
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[FONT=&quot]The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Seth[/FONT][FONT=&quot] then teaches the others[/FONT][FONT=&quot] regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.


In chapter four, Satan adjure Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.

The sons of Symeon continue to relate that : Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “ [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify [/FONT][FONT=&quot]: Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI) [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to teach of the resurrection of Jesus.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] However FIRST, they were appointed by Michael to “first to go to the Jordan and be baptized.” “There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again.” [/FONT]

POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS

 

[Clearly]

POST THREE OF THREE

[FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot] There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world. For example, the ancient text from the diary of a Christian woman Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, descriptive terms.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]First, Perpetua relates : Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Quote:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who new myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’ [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”

Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates : Quote:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that Quote:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water. The story of Dinocrates is lost to history at this point.[/FONT]

However, my point in offering such descriptions is not to say all descriptions of “purgatory” are correct, but to offer support to the specific point that the doctrine of a world between death and resurrection/judgement itself was believed by the early Judao-Christians and they would have interpreted scriptures with this context of belief.

Clearly
twvidrackn

 

[crimsonleaf]

Do you ever ask someone to pray for you? Do you ever value the prayers of a certain person because of their sanctity?

Er, I'd have to answer "No". The sanctity of any person is unknown to me, and as far as I'm concerned God treats all prayers equally.

Or do you believe that some of the saved are better than others?

 

[Panevino]

Er, I'd have to answer "No". The sanctity of any person is unknown to me, and as far as I'm concerned God treats all prayers equally.

Or do you believe that some of the saved are better than others?

Not "better" but perhaps more with/in Christ.

Perhaps this is relevant?
Job42:7 And it was [so], that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath].8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you [after your] folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is] right, like my servant Job.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

Deu34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Luke9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white29 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

Acts9:37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid [her] in an upper chamber..........40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning [him] to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

Rev1:1.......His servant John 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw........7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
(see Mat19:27-28/Rev4:4)
Rev5:13

speaking to the dead to pray for their resurrection in the case of Tabitha, is a far stretch from praying to a departed saint for help, and as for the transfiguration, Jesus was not praying to Moses or Elijah, they were brought to minister to Jesus about His own death to come, If God brings a dead Moses or Elijah to speak with you then more power to you, but theres nothing in scripture that leads anyone to believe you should pray to the living departed

 

[Panevino]

speaking to the dead to pray for their resurrection in the case of Tabitha, is a far stretch from praying to a departed saint for help, and as for the transfiguration, Jesus was not praying to Moses or Elijah, they were brought to minister to Jesus about His own death to come, If God brings a dead Moses or Elijah to speak with you then more power to you, but theres nothing in scripture that leads anyone to believe you should pray to the living departed

Hi, I was not offering them in reference to seeking intercession.
It was in response to your following statement.

Originally Posted by thegospelisgoodnews
yes people who still have flesh and blood, we are never to speak to those who have departed our earthly plane, thats called necromancy, thats wrong

So do you still hold that speaking to living departed in All instances is always necromancy? Y/n

Regarding the transfiguration. Jesus was praying to the Father, and God Allowed the living departed to hear and communicate with him. And the apostles were also allowed to see them and understand that they were talking.
Seeking intercession from the living departed claims much less than what occurred there. It only requires God to allow them to hear us seek that intercession as he does to allow the elders in heaven to hold the vials full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Rev5:8

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

Hi, I was not offering them in reference to seeking intercession.
It was in response to your following statement.



So do you still hold that speaking to living departed in All instances is always necromancy? Y/n

Regarding the transfiguration. Jesus was praying to the Father, and God Allowed the living departed to hear and communicate with him. And the apostles were also allowed to see them and understand that they were talking.
Seeking intercession from the living departed claims much less than what occurred there. It only requires God to allow them to hear us seek that intercession as he does to allow the elders in heaven to hold the vials full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Rev5:8

like I said if Moses and Elijah show up at your bedside or any other angelic being, feel free to speak with them, they came to you, just as angels visit everyone who is going to inherit salvation. I'm always at a loss why anyone would pray to another human, even if it were true that they could relate prayers to God Himself. Why would anyone not go straight to the top, to the one who loves them more than anyone, could Mary love me more than God, thats just plain crazy! I think you would be wise to cut out the middle men, and women, and take your concerns to someone with all the answers and all the ability to actually do somthing about it. but thats just me, I find if you really want to get things done, go to someone in charge

 

[steve_bakr]

like I said if Moses and Elijah show up at your bedside or any other angelic being, feel free to speak with them, they came to you, just as angels visit everyone who is going to inherit salvation. I'm always at a loss why anyone would pray to another human, even if it were true that they could relate prayers to God Himself. Why would anyone not go straight to the top, to the one who loves them more than anyone, could Mary love me more than God, thats just plain crazy! I think you would be wise to cut out the middle men, and women, and take your concerns to someone with all the answers and all the ability to actually do somthing about it. but thats just me, I find if you really want to get things done, go to someone in charge

Do you ever ask someone to pray for you?

 

[Panevino]

like I said if Moses and Elijah show up at your bedside or any other angelic being, feel free to speak with them, they came to you, just as angels visit everyone who is going to inherit salvation.

so is that a no? (edit, mistakenly wrote yes! In originall post )

I'm always at a loss why anyone would pray to another human, even if it were true that they could relate prayers to God Himself.

they do "relate prayers to God Himself" in rev5:8

Why would anyone not go straight to the top, to the one who loves them more than anyone

Catholics do go "straight to the top" and also seek prayer from the body of Christ on earth and in heaven.,

could Mary love me more than God, thats just plain crazy!

No body claims she does, that's not the intent/driver of seeking her or any other saints intercession.

I think you would be wise to cut out the middle men, and women, and take your concerns to someone with all the answers and all the ability to actually do somthing about it. but thats just me, I find if you really want to get things done, go to someone in charge

I understand you. But bear in mind seeking their prayers for us is not a replacement of going to the top. The middle men include the saints on earth and the elders in rev5:8 as all part of the body of Christ.
Including the martyrs in rev6:9-10.

 

[Aeneas]

I'm always at a loss why anyone would pray to another human, even if it were true that they could relate prayers to God Himself. Why would anyone not go straight to the top, to the one who loves them more than anyone, could Mary love me more than God, thats just plain crazy! I think you would be wise to cut out the middle men, and women, and take your concerns to someone with all the answers and all the ability to actually do somthing about it. but thats just me, I find if you really want to get things done, go to someone in charge

It's called "prayer requests". Have you ever encountered the concept before?

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

Do you ever ask someone to pray for you?

actually no I don't, If I have any needs I go straight to the top, just as Jesus taught, and when I pray with others, I go by the scripture when two or more are gathered in His name, I don't get gathered together with living departed saints, they can neither cross the chasm, or neither can I cross over to them, these are spiritual boundries, set by God. Now if God permits Samuel the prophet to come and visit to pray with you, you just better hope it wasn't with the witch of Endor that helped you make contact

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

so is that a yes? they do "relate prayers to God Himself" in rev5:8 Catholics do go "straight to the top" and also seek prayer from the body of Christ on earth and in heaven.,
No body claims she does, that's not the intent/driver of seeking her or any other saints intercession. I understand you. But bear in mind seeking their prayers for us is not a replacement of going to the top. The middle men include the saints on earth and the elders in rev5:8 as all part of the body of Christ.
Including the martyrs in rev6:9-10.

He's a jealous God, I wouldn't risk praying (a form of worship) to anyone other than the Father, Son or Holy Spirit, but thats just me! you can pray to whom ever you wish, I bear no grudge

 

[Aeneas]

praying (a form of worship)

No, it isn't. Buy a dictionary and use it.