Protestants and Mortal sin

[JCrawf]

Jesus took the place of the Priests in the OT.

Not quite. Jesus began the New Covenant, which brought with it a new priesthood that began with him and the Apostles that he ordained.

You are right to assume Priests under Him. They are all of us who are in Christ Jesus.

In a sense yes, as well as those that Jesus particularly ordained - the Apostles. It is from Christ, through the Apostles, that the priesthood derives.

Are you really trying to say that Jesus is the same as any man?

He is fully man, is her not? Or are you saying that he is partially man, and thus only partially incarnated as the Word of God made flesh?

While He came as a man, He is God.

Yes, he is full God. But he is also fully Man. That is the mystery of the Incarnation.

No other can be compared to Him.

Not completely, though he is considered the Second Adam.

I stated that He forgives us, and in fact already has. He said, it is finished. That means nothing more needs to be done.

Well, in regards to his death, yes; but in regards to the Great Commission, which he charges to his disciples after he had risen, that has not been finished. Moreso, what about the sending of the Holy Spirit and Pentecost? If everything was truly finished at Christ's crucifixion and death, then what was the necessity for the events after his resurrection? Why do we proclaime that Christ will come again if everything was finished on the cross? Why do we need to confess at all if everything was finished at the cross?

He forgave us so that we can be in relationship with Him.

And what is the reason to be in relationship with him? What does that fulfill?

We must receive this forgiveness.

Does that not mean we have to do something? So thus, in the relationship, do we not have to cooperate in some way?

But you hit the nail on the head, the bible tells us how to acknowledge the forgivenss he has given us, so that He can inturn change us.

Indeed, because conversion towards Christ and to the will of God is the whole point.

The Bible also speaks of working to try to earn forgiveness, and it is called being bound by the law. This is in opposition to receiving His free gift of forgiveness, and eternal life.

Then explain the following passage, which comes from the Bible:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead. (James 2:14-26)

Does it not seem that the Bible is indicating that it is a matter of faith and works; that there is a cooperation and necessity for both in the life in the Spirit?

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[JCrawf]

I see Christ's role as intercessor, and High Priest. Pastors/Priests are there to help guide us but we are ultimately responsible for our own relationship with God. Being too dependant on any human spiritual leader can be dangerous, where they may fail, Jesus remains the same.

As intercessor, Christ is being a middleman. A priest, in alter Christi are in the role of Christ, and thus intercede for us in that role. Thus, they do as the High Priest in heaven does, but on earth. Thus, they fulfill our Lord's prayer of "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

Priests, like the Apostles they descend from, have become fathers through the Gospel. Or, as St. Paul stated:

For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. (I Cor. 4:15)

St. Paul even uses similar words in showing his trust in one of his successors, St. Timothy:

But Timothy's worth you know, how like a son with a father he has served with me in the work of the gospel. (Phil 2:22)

Yes, we are responsible for our relationship with our Lord. As St. Paul notes, we have many "guardians" among our fellow Chrsitains, but there are those that become our fathers through the gospel, as both St. Paul and St. Timothy had been. And this is the aspect of which priesthood and the sacrament of Ordination comes into play. And like all sacraments, its origins is in Christ. For as Christ sent his Apostles, so did the Apostles send their succsessors, and so on.

Of course, a priest isn't perfect, but nevertheless, God does choose to utilize the imperfect to show His mercy and grace.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[djbcrawford]

Then explain the following passage, which comes from the Bible:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead. (James 2:14-26)

Does it not seem that the Bible is indicating that it is a matter of faith and works; that there is a cooperation and necessity for both in the life in the Spirit?

Pax Tecum,

John

What that means is that works show evidence of faith. Faith by definition must produce works or it isn't faith in the first place. However it is still the faith that saves. Works without faith cannot save.

It's like someone saying they love their wife. The evidence of this love is how they treat her. If they treat her badly, how can they love her. However treating her well doesn't mean they do love her, it just makes it more likely they do.

 

[djbcrawford]

The Sacraments were not added, each was instituted by Jesus Christ Himself. Each Sacrament can be found in the Gospel accounts, this is where Catholicism began, and Catholicism lives to this day, despite efforts tear her down. Jesus said we would face persecution, mockery and nay-sayery. But, 2000 years later, the seven sacraments instituted by Christ are still very much alive.

As I am unfamiliar with the other five or perhaps know them by a different name, perhaps you could enlighten me.

Christianity will always be attacked by the world as the world fears the light and prefers to hide in the darkness.

 

[frettr00]

I'm late to this thread but don't feel like trudging through 11 pages so... To sum it up...full knowledge, grave matter & consent are all required for mortal sin. Protestants have consent, and the grave matter..but they don't have the knowledge regarding the truth of the church and the nature of mortal/venial sins. Basically..they can't commit mortal sins. If they did happen to believe the nature of mortal/venial sins & confession as Catholics do..then they'd most likely conver to Catholicism.

 

[PETE_]

As intercessor, Christ is being a middleman. A priest, in alter Christi are in the role of Christ, and thus intercede for us in that role. Thus, they do as the High Priest in heaven does, but on earth. Thus, they fulfill our Lord's prayer of "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

Priests, like the Apostles they descend from, have become fathers through the Gospel. Or, as St. Paul stated:

For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. (I Cor. 4:15)

St. Paul even uses similar words in showing his trust in one of his successors, St. Timothy:

But Timothy's worth you know, how like a son with a father he has served with me in the work of the gospel. (Phil 2:22)

Yes, we are responsible for our relationship with our Lord. As St. Paul notes, we have many "guardians" among our fellow Chrsitains, but there are those that become our fathers through the gospel, as both St. Paul and St. Timothy had been. And this is the aspect of which priesthood and the sacrament of Ordination comes into play. And like all sacraments, its origins is in Christ. For as Christ sent his Apostles, so did the Apostles send their succsessors, and so on.

Of course, a priest isn't perfect, but nevertheless, God does choose to utilize the imperfect to show His mercy and grace.

Pax Tecum,

John

What is required to be one of these "fathers", and is there any special authority given to them not available to other Christians?

 

[Febe]

As I am unfamiliar with the other five or perhaps know them by a different name, perhaps you could enlighten me.

Christianity will always be attacked by the world as the world fears the light and prefers to hide in the darkness.

As I´m translating from Swedish, I might use different words, but I hope it will be clear:
Baptism.
Confirmation (not as in a protestantic church).
Confession.
Eucharist/Communion.
Marriage.
Ordination to priesthood.
Praying for sick, using oil - I know no word in English for this...


As for the thread - I must say that so far Rising Sun has given excellent answers!

Before my convertion, I was Lutheran; I asked God for forgiveness - and I trust He forgave me!
Now, as a Catholic, II ask God for forgiveness in my heart every day, and in confession about every second week, and I trust Him to forgive me!
One good thing with confession is the little privet sermon You get, with good advice...

 

[drstevej]

nevermind

 

[Febe]

OP Question:



Answer (of this Protestant pastor of 25 years):

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, He (JESUS) is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
​

(If there are follow up questions, start a thread in GT and I will reply. - Steve)

Good answer! ..... Though I believe that a lot of congregations use confession - but maybe in different forms... When I was at a course in healing prayer, with my daughters, we were a lot of fifferent congregations... Day two was a day of fast and confession for all who wanted - in all congregations...

 

[djbcrawford]

As I´m translating from Swedish, I might use different words, but I hope it will be clear:
Baptism.
Confirmation (not as in a protestantic church).
Confession.
Eucharist/Communion.
Marriage.
Ordination to priesthood.
Praying for sick, using oil - I know no word in English for this...

Thanks, I see what you mean now. Yup we have those, I was just thinking of ones around becoming a Christian (baptism and commmunion).

Our "Confession" would be different though. Normally more of a daily confession to God privately. However sometimes though it is done to the Pastors or Christian friends depending on how the Spirit leads or if advice is needed as well. It can be very humbling to admit our faults to others but sometimes this is needed (If my people would humble themselves...)

 

[Look Homeward Anglican]

Good answer! ..... Though I believe that a lot of congregations use confession - but maybe in different forms... When I was at a course in healing prayer, with my daughters, we were a lot of fifferent congregations... Day two was a day of fast and confession for all who wanted - in all congregations...

I have always wondered why churches other than Catholic ones would go through the motions of confession, since they have no priests to confess to who have the apostolic authority to absolve them of their sins; what they do, to me, seems more like getting together with an ordinary man and telling him all their sins. He can nod and say he understands, tell them to try to do better, etc... but the words "I absolve you" and the absolution they carry never take place.

 

[poppinskw]

I have always wondered why churches other than Catholic ones would go through the motions of confession, since they have no priests to confess to who have the apostolic authority to absolve them of their sins; what they do, to me, seems more like getting together with an ordinary man and telling him all their sins. He can nod and say he understands, tell them to try to do better, etc... but the words "I absolve you" and the absolution they carry never take place.

When I was a protestant I at times did speak to a Pastor or a counsellor at church, for advice, encouragement and prayer.

I confessed my sins to God, I repented of those sins before God, and then I received my cleansing and forgivness from God. I have no doubt that God forgave me. This was the only way I knew and learned to do this.

Now as a Catholic I learned about Reconciliation and the wonderful Sacrament it is.....
I confess and repent this way. It is still God that forgives. I know that God uses the Priest in this Sacrament, the voice is the Priests, but the Words are God's....I absolve you from your sins, that makes a difference to me, hearing those words verbally.

Les

 

[PastorMikeJ]

We go to God and ask him for forgiveness...we repent!!! but then we believe sin is sin and that there isn't levels of sin... a white lie is just as wrong as commiting murder...

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Might I just put in my two cents...

All sins are mortal... "For the wages of sin is death..." Rom. 6:23

That's not what the Bible says. The Bible says not all sins are deadly.

I guess that doesn't fit into Calvinism or something?

Not all sin is deadly" (1 John 5:17)

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

confession would be great for getting stuff off your chest. It would probably help someone heal.

It is one of the best feelings in the world. It is like a tremendous weight is lifted and you become brand new all over!

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Jesus is our High Priest. It is through Him that we are forgiven and brought into relationship with Jehovah. We are not in need of any man to recieve forgiveness. Penance sounds to me like a way to earn forgiveness, which was freely given. There is nothing we can do to earn forgiveness.

Penance is done after forgiveness. Please learn about Confession before assuming.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I have always wondered why churches other than Catholic ones would go through the motions of confession, since they have no priests to confess to who have the apostolic authority to absolve them of their sins; what they do, to me, seems more like getting together with an ordinary man and telling him all their sins. He can nod and say he understands, tell them to try to do better, etc... but the words "I absolve you" and the absolution they carry never take place.

Yes, it is very sad that they miss out.

 

[JCrawf]

What is required to be one of these "fathers", and is there any special authority given to them not available to other Christians?

Priests have to go through seminary and be ordained. Other than that, they have no more special authority besides their role as priest.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[JCrawf]

What that means is that works show evidence of faith. Faith by definition must produce works or it isn't faith in the first place. However it is still the faith that saves. Works without faith cannot save.

It's like someone saying they love their wife. The evidence of this love is how they treat her. If they treat her badly, how can they love her. However treating her well doesn't mean they do love her, it just makes it more likely they do.

In other words, faith and works go hand in hand, cooperating in the form of close relationship to one another. In that, I agree. Too many Christians have put the two in adversarial roles for too long. It's not a matter of either...or, but both...and when it comes to faith and works.

BTW, good analogy in the second paragraph of your post. And it's also good to see another Crawford around.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[JCrawf]

We go to God and ask him for forgiveness...we repent!!! but then we believe sin is sin and that there isn't levels of sin... a white lie is just as wrong as commiting murder...

Well, the difference is that a person who tells a white lie is more likely to go to Heaven than a person who commits murder if they do not repent. Moreso, the problem with the more venial sins is that it is possible a person might forget about them, unless they repent of them right away. Do you think God would condemn a person for forgetting to confess and repend of a white lie that they forgot that they told, or a minor slip of the tongue that they may not have been conscious of saying?

That's one reason why we consider the Eucharist suffecient enough to aid in the venial sins and, for the most part, leave the mortal sins and habitual sins for Confession wherein the person who goes may be given council and a pennance to help direct and focus the person towards God.

Pax Tecum,

John