Protestant Taking Communion...

[thereselittleflower]

John

"do this in rememberance of me" . .

Are you sure that Jesus intended it in the way we modern americans think of rememberance?


Peace in Him!

 

[nyj]

What I find difficult to stomach (no pun intended) is that the Priest blesses the bread to make it Christ. You have to repent of your sin (do you have to go to confession?) in order to partake, so I would presume the Priest would have to be in the same order with the Lord in order to bless the bread and wine? By this I mean a Priest cannot bless it if he is living in sin.

This idea has been condemned by the Church. It is a heresy known as Donatism.

 

[thereselittleflower]

John you said this:

Here's a great analogy for you. Three people came into your house as guests. The first sat at your table, took the fork and knife, and ate the meal you had prepared for them. The second sat and took chopsticks and ate. The third ate with their hands. So does the first have the right to tell the second that they ate the meal the wrong way? Or that he hasn't eaten the meal correctly? And with the third? So too aren't we all at the Lord's table, eating with different implementations, but we are gathered in his presence. Let us discuss the way the Lord has given us to partake of what he has prepared for us at his table, for I see nobody here who is not eating of the same bread and spirit of the Lord.

No .. it is not a great analogy . . because it says nothing abuot the contents of the meal or what those enjoying the meal understand they are eating . .




Peace in Him!

 

[Benedicta00]

The Lutheran position on the real presence is similiar to that of the EO, they don't want to push a definition. A Lutheran is required to believe in the real presence, but the definition of how it takes place is up to the believer.

The EO do not subscribe to transubstantiation, yet their sacraments are valid. So why would the Lutheran Church's be invalid?

Because Lutherans believe Jesus is contained in the bread and wine not that he is the bread and wine and EO are valid legitimate diocese with valid sacraments and holy orders, they are Catholic, valid, and licit (although they would not say the same about us). Orthodox and Lutherans are in no way similar. Lutherans are not Catholic but Protestant and they do not have valid a priesthood. If there is a valid Lutheran priest he is far and very few in between. Their communion is not at all the same as the Catholic and Orthodox.

 

[Spotty]

As far as I know, the Church has not made any claim as to the validity of this miracle one way or the other. However, I'd like you to take a look at it and let me know what you think. Read his testimony first, of course, so you get what's going on. The video link is on the top of the page.

http://dsanford.com/miraclehost.html

This Host bled in '91 at its consecration. Apparently, it appears to be on fire in this video from '98. I've analyzed what I could, given the lighting, and the angle, but can't discover how it would have been faked.

If you'd like, let usknow what you think.

-Spotty

 

[Lotar]

Because Lutherans believe Jesus is contained in the bread and wine not that he is the bread and wine and EO are valid legitimate diocese with valid sacraments and holy orders, they are Catholic, valid, and licit (although they would not say the same about us). Orthodox and Lutherans are in no way similar. Lutherans are not Catholic but Protestant and they do not have valid a priesthood. If there is a valid Lutheran priest he is far and very few in between. Their communion is not at all the same as the Catholic and Orthodox.

Lutherans believe in the real presence, consubstantiation is not what Lutherans teach, they do not define how it happens, it is just one of the acceptable beliefs. It is not that that He is contained within, but that they coexist, as in the bread and wine do not disappear.

The ECLA has bishops, so how would they be different?

As far as I've seen, the only difference between the Catholic and Lutheran communion is that Lutherans use the little individual cups instead of one chalice.


Well, there have been continued talks between the Lutheran and Catholic Churches. Perhaps if the next Pope is as open to compromise as the current one, things will change.

 

[Spotty]

John

"do this in rememberance of me" . .

Are you sure that Jesus intended it in the way we modern americans think of rememberance?


Peace in Him!

Another thing to realize regarding the phrase "Do this in rememberance of me" is what "this" is. Forgive the violent example, but suppose I gave someone 2 guns and told them to shoot with "this" (gun). One gun is loaded and the other is not. You can see as how it is important to examine the details, (loaded/unloaded - Truly Christ/Symbolic of Christ) not simply the generalities (shoot gun - consume rememberance meal).

The outcomes and the doings of the action will have VERY different effects depending on what "this" is.

-Spotty

 

[Filia Mariae]

The ECLA has bishops, so how would they be different?

They do not have apostolic succession. I do not know if the Lutheran Church uses the correct ordination rites, they may or may not. Lutheran churches also have female pastors and being as it is impossible to ordain a woman they are obviously not validly ordained.

 

[Lotar]

They do not have apostolic succession. I do not know if the Lutheran Church uses the correct ordination rites, they may or may not. Lutheran churches also have female pastors and being as it is impossible to ordain a woman they are obviously not validly ordained.

They have apostolic succession from the Swedish bishops.

Some Lutheran churches ordain women, some don't.

 

[Filia Mariae]

They have apostolic succession from the Swedish bishops.

Every single one? Using the proper ordination rites? Without a woman "priest" interrupting the apostolic line anywhere?

Some Lutheran churches ordain women, some don't.

Unless I am mistaken, the ELCA does. Anytime a woman "priest" has ordained another priest, the entire line after that would be invalid since women cannot be priests.

 

[John the Engineer]

So many conversations, still just one thread. Wow. First, Therese, no offense was taken. I was pointing out that we're all one just for rememberence sake. I have not taken any offense anywhere in this thread from anyone's posts.

Where to begin though, I don't know. As long as we're discussing the idea of communion, it was done as part of the passover feast. To make a quick circuit of this, how do you know that he didn't mean it in the same way we think of rememberence today? Wasn't the passover feast itself in rememberence? Yet there was no angel of death coming, and they did not paint the blood over the doors, but they did still remember it and celebrate it.

Luke 22:19 reads "et accepto pane gratias egit et fregit et dedit eis dicens hoc est corpus meum quod pro vobis datur hoc facite in meam commemorationem" in the original latin. Commemorationem means to remind, relate, mention. Or to keep in mind. What I believe he was saying was that you're to keep this in mind. The actual term "this" doesn't really exist in the original latin text. Though my latin is not good in the slightest, so maybe someone on here is better at it than I. I will have to consult a good friend who knows latin pretty well.

This topic I will have to study more. Right now I have a monster headache from a very bad day.

 

[ChoirDir]

EO are valid legitimate diocese with valid sacraments and holy orders, they are Catholic, valid, and licit (although they would not say the same about us).

Orthodox view of the Catholic Church recognizes her as a Church of Sacraments, we are just not in communion together. I believe the differences over leavened or unleavened bread will be a minor issue in bringing the Churches back together.
Do the Lutheran's invocate the Holy Spirit?
It is the reason the Catholics and Orthodox believe it is truly His Body and His Blood.

 

[Lotar]

Every single one? Using the proper ordination rites? Without a woman "priest" interrupting the apostolic line anywhere?


Unless I am mistaken, the ELCA does. Anytime a woman "priest" has ordained another priest, the entire line after that would be invalid since women cannot be priests.

As far as I know, there are no women bishops in the ELCA, but I was just using them as an example, there are other Lutheran synods that do not ordain women.

I don't even know what constitutes a proper ordination rite, so I can't help you on that one.

 

[Spotty]

Luke 22:19 reads "et accepto pane gratias egit et fregit et dedit eis dicens hoc est corpus meum quod pro vobis datur hoc facite in meam commemorationem" in the original latin. Commemorationem means to remind, relate, mention. Or to keep in mind. What I believe he was saying was that you're to keep this in mind. The actual term "this" doesn't really exist in the original latin text. Though my latin is not good in the slightest, so maybe someone on here is better at it than I. I will have to consult a good friend who knows latin pretty well.

This topic I will have to study more. Right now I have a monster headache from a very bad day.

First, it wasn't originally written in Latin, but most likely Greek (less likely Aramaic, but definatly not Latin). Second of all, even if the word "this" isn't within the text it would not nullify my previous point as we are called by our Lord to do an action in rememberance of Him. What is that action?

Thirdly...take a break, man, and get rid of that headache.

-Spotty

 

[Lotar]

Orthodox view of the Catholic Church recognizes her as a Church of Sacraments, we are just not in communion together. I believe the differences over leavened or unleavened bread will be a minor issue in bringing the Churches back together.
Do the Lutheran's invocate the Holy Spirit?
It is the reason the Catholics and Orthodox believe it is truly His Body and His Blood.

Yes.

 

[nyj]

I believe the differences over leavened or unleavened bread will be a minor issue in bringing the Churches back together.

This shouldn't be a problem, at least for Catholics. The Eastern Rites of Catholicism use leavened bread.

 

[Oblio]

IIRC the Greek that is translated means to relive the moment, not to 'remember' as we use it in modern English. This fits with the Orthodox (and Catholic IIRC) view that the Divine Liturgy (or Mass in the RCC) is occuring outside of temporal time. Hence, we participate in the Mystical Last Supper along with the entire Church (Triumphant and Militant) and the Heavenly Hosts, from the first, until the end of ages of ages.

 

[John the Engineer]

First, it wasn't originally written in Latin, but most likely Greek (less likely Aramaic, but definatly not Latin). Second of all, even if the word "this" isn't within the text it would not nullify my previous point as we are called by our Lord to do an action in rememberance of Him. What is that action?

Thirdly...take a break, man, and get rid of that headache.

-Spotty

Action, yes, you're right.

Anyway, I'm going to continue to learn about the Catholic Faith, thank you all for your posts. God Bless All of You.

Fair winds and following seas.

 

[Benedicta00]

Lutherans believe in the real presence, consubstantiation is not what Lutherans teach, they do not define how it happens, it is just one of the acceptable beliefs. It is not that that He is contained within, but that they coexist, as in the bread and wine do not disappear.

The ECLA has bishops, so how would they be different?

As far as I've seen, the only difference between the Catholic and Lutheran communion is that Lutherans use the little individual cups instead of one chalice.


Well, there have been continued talks between the Lutheran and Catholic Churches. Perhaps if the next Pope is as open to compromise as the current one, things will change.

Lotar,

First, coexistence is not what the EO or the Catholics believe and that right there is why the sacrament even if the Lutheran minister is a valid priest would not be valid. Next…

As far as I've seen, the only difference between the Catholic and Lutheran communion is that Lutherans use the little individual cups instead of one chalice.

Again, if you believed as both the EO and the Catholics, this would NOT be an option.

The Lutheran communion is not a valid sacrament, it does not become the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus. All the various different Lutherans can believe all they want but belief doesn’t make it happen, a ordained priest intending to do what the Church does, does and there will never be a Pope who will compromise the Holy Eucharist.

 

[artnalex]

A Catholic could validly attend Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox church, and, while he or she could legitimately receive Communion from the Orthodox priest or bishop by the rules of Catholicism, it is Orthodox doctrine that only members of the Orthodox church may be communed, so a Catholic attending Divine Liturgy could not be communed.

Doesn't a Catholic need a dispensation from their Bishop to take communion in an EO church. I think so.

I also think that if a Catholic were to go to a EO Mass, it would not fulfill their Sunday obligation.

Can anyone confirm this (or correct me)?