Protestant Taking Communion...

[artnalex]

John the Engineer:

Where to begin though, I don't know. As long as we're discussing the idea of communion, it was done as part of the passover feast. To make a quick circuit of this, how do you know that he didn't mean it in the same way we think of rememberence today? Wasn't the passover feast itself in rememberence? Yet there was no angel of death coming, and they did not paint the blood over the doors, but they did still remember it and celebrate it.

I think one of the best ways to help get a thorough understanding of what Jesus meant is to consult Him. Since you are not likely to have a personal revelation - you can consult His apostles and their disciples. If you read the works of these early church fathers I am sure that you will be overwhelmed with evidence that supports the Catholic belief.

Here are some excerpts that I'm sure many of us Catholics are used to quoting when it comes to supporting our Catholic beliefs.

Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to "those who hold heterodox opinions," that "they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again" (6:2, 7:1). This was to combat the Docetist heretics who denied the humanity of Jesus, claiming Jesus was only of divine nature. Here Ignatius (who was a disciple of John the Evangelist himself) equates the flesh of the Eucharist to that same flesh which was crucified on the Cross, just like in John 6.

Ireneaus, a student of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John as well, used the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist in order to prove the resurrection of the Christian dead: “The Eucharist becomes the body of Christ… How can they say that the flesh which is nourished with the body of the Lord and wit his blood passes into corruption and partakes not of life?” (Ireneaus, Against Heresies, 4.18.5; 5.2.3)

Forty years later, Justin Martyr, wrote, "Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66:1–20).

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

Doesn't a Catholic need a dispensation from their Bishop to take communion in an EO church. I think so.

I also think that if a Catholic were to go to a EO Mass, it would not fulfill their Sunday obligation.

Can anyone confirm this (or correct me)?

That is my understanding also but as always see a priest

Can. 844 §1 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments only to catholic members of Christ's faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from catholic ministers, except as provided in §2, 3 and 4 of this canon and in can. 861 §2.

 

[Lotar]

Ahhhh, the aggravation, I like it

We'll see shelb, we'll see...

 

[artnalex]

That is my understanding also but as always see a priest

Come on. You know I am not planning on taking communion anywhere but Home.

 

[Polycarp1]

Doesn't a Catholic need a dispensation from their Bishop to take communion in an EO church. I think so.

I also think that if a Catholic were to go to a EO Mass, it would not fulfill their Sunday obligation.

Can anyone confirm this (or correct me)?

As an Anglican, I hesitate to make comments in OBOB on Canon Law, but I think the provisions of Canon 844 that [Aaron Aggie] cited above (post #41?) make it pretty clear when a Catholic can go to an EO church and when not:

§2 Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ's faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

Attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy when a Catholic Mass is purely and simply not possible within the capabilities of a good Catholic would therefore seem to satisfy the Sunday and Holy Day obligation.

A point for John the Engineer: The word "remembrance" and the Latin commemoratio which it translates in the Canon of the Mass both seem to have a "memorial" referent. But the Greek word which the original text of the Gospels use is a much "stronger" word than those less-than-ideal translations: anamnesis. Break it down to an- + -a + -mnes- + [/i]-is[/i]. The middle element, the root, will obviously call to mind "mnemonic" and, with the "-a-" included, "amnesia." The an- is a strong negative. (The -is simply makes it a noun.) Literally, it's the anti-forgetting, the calling strongly to mind, as a present reality, of an event distant in time and space. In the Eucharist we are present, in spirit, at the Last Supper, and share in Christ's giving of Himself under the "species" of bread and wine there. If you're familiar with the differences between the German werden and the English "become" which supposedly translates it, or the idea that the Spanish "Ay! Caramba!" is supposedly translated "Oh gracious!" (which I always picture a startled little old lady saying), you may get the distinction between the strong active power behind the Greek original and the rather bland and weak English pseudotranslation.

Final point, which I raise very diffidently in OBOB -- it's the firm belief of most Anglicans that the Holy Spirit has led us to understand that just as it doesn't take a Jew to represent our Jewish Lord, it doesn't take a male to represent Him, and that therefore a woman's call to the ordained priesthood may be quite valid. I recognize that this is completely contrary to Catholic theology and practice, but in the sardonic references to "women 'priests'" in this thread, I felt a slap at our beliefs. If God gives you grace to stand firm for Catholic belief and practice without in doing so slamming the Anglican (and ELCA Lutheran) divergence from it in this matter, recognizing how the firm beliefs and practices of Catholicism important to you are often slammed by Protestants and how that makes you feel, I'd be grateful. Peace!

 

[Benedicta00]

Doesn't a Catholic need a dispensation from their Bishop to take communion in an EO church. I think so.

I also think that if a Catholic were to go to a EO Mass, it would not fulfill their Sunday obligation.

Can anyone confirm this (or correct me)?

The only thing I am aware of is if the only Church around was a EO Church and there was no other option. In the United States this would not be an issue but I guess if you were in another country out in the east where there wasn’t to many Catholic Churches available it would apply.

 

[Benedicta00]

Ahhhh, the aggravation, I like it

We'll see shelb, we'll see...

Well that is how it goes, if you think I am misrepresenting Lutherans, you are not allowed to correct me. I didn’t make the rules…

Besides, I distinctly remember you joking at my belief in the real presence, and that you didn’t personally believe in the real presence, now you are saying the Lutherans believe as we and you seem to imply that you join in on this belief, have you had a change of heart?

 

[KennySe]

Polycarp1,
I appreciate your knowledge that you share throughout ChristianForums.

On female priests, shouldn't the term "priestess" be used, or is it optional in the Anglican Church for a woman to be called "female priest or priestess?

*****

And as for why the Catholic Church does not have female priests, I would say because of Holy Tradition.

 

[Polycarp1]

Polycarp1,
I appreciate your knowledge that you share throughout ChristianForums.

On female priests, shouldn't the term "priestess" be used, or is it optional in the Anglican Church for a woman to be called "female priest or priestess?

*****

And as for why the Catholic Church does not have female priests, I would say because of Holy Tradition.

No, any more than a Monsignor should be called a 'high priest' -- which at least has Scriptural warrant. These are women who serve God in the high calling of a priest at His altar, anointing the sick, absolving of sin in the sacrament of Penance, and preaching His Word. "Priestess" is a term used in pagan faiths, not Christianity.

 

[KennySe]

Roger that, good buddy.

 

[geocajun]

No, any more than a Monsignor should be called a 'high priest' -- which at least has Scriptural warrant. These are women who serve God in the high calling of a priest at His altar, anointing the sick, absolving of sin in the sacrament of Penance, and preaching His Word. "Priestess" is a term used in pagan faiths, not Christianity.

do you address them as "Father" ?

 

[Polycarp1]

do you address them as "Father" ?

As what they wish to be called. Jim and Lorraine, the married couple who jointly serve as the priests of our church, prefer being on a first-name basis with all parishioners. I knew one older woman priest who wished people to use "Mother" as the preferential honorific. And a woman priest whose given name was Keith Elizabeth (after an uncle and aunt, as I recall), used "Father Keith" -- which caused some startlement to folks who didn't know her when she as a woman responded to someone calling her by that title!



BTW, I know I'm treading close to disputatiousness here -- I raised the "woman priest" question only as a request for courtesy. So if any Mod. prefers no further discussion of Anglican women priests in OBOB, all you need do is say so.

 

[geocajun]

are there any anglican nuns? if so, are they ever addressed as "mother" ?

 

[artnalex]

As an Anglican, I hesitate to make comments in OBOB on Canon Law, but I think the provisions of Canon 844 that [Aaron Aggie] cited above (post #41?) make it pretty clear when a Catholic can go to an EO church and when not:


....

Attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy when a Catholic Mass is purely and simply not possible within the capabilities of a good Catholic would therefore seem to satisfy the Sunday and Holy Day obligation.

Polycarp,
There seems to be some miscommunication as I am not refuting when it is allowable to go to mass at an EO church. What i am saying is that a dispensation needs to be sought after first. The Canon Law would allow the bishop to grant you the dispensation, but you could not attend the Mass, and rec'v communion, without first receiveing a dispensation.

 

[KennySe]

BTW, I know I'm treading close to disputatiousness here --

Polly, you crack me up.

You're a good guy, Polycarp1.

 

[Polycarp1]

are there any anglican nuns? if so, are they ever addressed as "mother" ?

Yes, though far more often "sister," as one might expect. The Community of St. Francis is a First-Order society of active Franciscan sisters; Sister Elizabeth Ann, who died of cancer a couple of years ago, made Cursillo with my wife, and had a late vocation to the order. Last year we sadly celebrated the going on to glory of the last Poor Clare of Reparation in the U.S. Episcopal Church (a small community survives in Britain); two women are reputedly testing their vocations to restore that cloistered contemplative/intercessory community. (I'm particularly interested in them both because of Sr. Elizabeth Ann and because my wife is a life-professed Tertiary.) The Society of St. Margaret is another ministering order; they maintain a number of houses, including a retreat house in New Hartford, NY, that my wife and I had a very spiritually rewarding and uplifting retreat at. There are a number of other orders in the Episcopal Church; I can trace down information on some if there's interest.

 

[geocajun]

Polycarp, do you not fear that having Nuns and Priests called "Mother" or laity calling Priests by their first name only reduces the dignity of a Priest?
Also, has the number of women religious been reduced since the Anglicans began ordaining women?

 

[Polycarp1]

Polycarp, do you not fear that having Nuns and Priests called "Mother" or laity calling Priests by their first name only reduces the dignity of a Priest?

Well, I was totally unclear -- as in Catholic religious orders, the senior woman in a conventual order is "Reverend Mother" (the Franciscans, of course, have Ministers General and Ministers Provincial, not Abbots, Priors, Prioresses, etc.). The nuns and active-order sisters are "Sister," just as in Catholicism.

The dignity of a priest is not founded on the form of address used for him or her, but on the inherent dignity of the role. I can recall having met young Catholic priests who preferred being on a first-name basis with parishioners, too. Lorraine is our Rector (equivalent to Pastor in Catholicism) and has a very low-key leadership style aimed at building up the "ministry of the laity" (= "lay apostolate") but can be very firm on her priestly and rectoral authority on the rare occasions it is questioned, in a way that does not cause lasting ill feeling.

Also, has the number of women religious been reduced since the Anglicans began ordaining women?

Not noticeably so. They are, of course, two distinct callings to two distinct ministries, and the fact that we do not require clerical celibacy means that there is no inherent connection there. (Obviously, a priest in a celibate order will be celibate, but by virtue of his vows in the order, not his priestly vows.)

 

[geocajun]

The dignity of a priest is not founded on the form of address used for him or her, but on the inherent dignity of the role. I can recall having met young Catholic priests who preferred being on a first-name basis with parishioners, too.

thanks for your comments. While I do agree that the dignity of a Priest flows from the sacrament and not from the way laymen address them, what I have observed in practice is that priests I have known who were addressed by their first name where the least orthodox priests I have ever met - heck one even told my wife she could use birth control

I have read about the days when Priests hands were kissed instead of simply shaken after Mass - I wonder if in those days a Priests moral authority was more meaningful then as opposed to now when some folks shake their hands and call them by their first name.