Protestant questions about Mary

[Glorthac]

Do you believe Mary was sinless? Do you believe Mary died? If yes to both, why did she die? Isn't the wages of sin death?

 

[Protoevangel]

Hi Glorthac!

Yes, we do believe that Mary did not commit personal sin.

But we do believe that death, caused by Adam's "original" sin, is a condition all mankind is subject to. Even an unborn baby, who has had no possible occasion to sin, is still fully susceptible to death.

 

[choirfiend]

And, from the opposite point of explanation, we don't believe that being sinless makes you "immune" to death, or not in need of salvation. All are in need of Christ's salvation.

For example, Christ was sinless, yet He died for us. Being sinless does not mean that you can't die.

 

[Glorthac]

So you reject the immaculate conception of Mary?

 

[Protoevangel]

For the Immaculate Conception to be a viable doctrine, one would need to accept the Augustinian view of Original Sin in terms of inherited guilt, which we do not. Adam’s Original Sin resulted in death for all mankind, the experience of concupiscence instead of agape, and corruption of the nous that makes us predisposed to sin. So since Mary died, then she was indeed subject to the effects of Original Sin, and could not be said to have been conceived without it.

 

[Kristos]

Do you believe Mary was sinless? Do you believe Mary died? If yes to both, why did she die? Isn't the wages of sin death?

Yes, the wages of sin are death. We live in a mortal, fallen world. An infant who dies at birth certainly wouldn't have sinned, yet he dies. This is not because of genetics rather because of circumstance. Without guilt we are subject to the consequences of the fall due to the nature of the fallen world. I will not judge Mary, I have no knowledge of her sin. The church and the scriptures, however, affirm that she was pure, a virgin, not just just in the physical sense but in every way.

 

[ArmyMatt]

plus if the wages of sin is death, a wage is something that is earned and desired. so death came into the world when Adam desired the fruit of the tree more than he desired communion with God. Adam chose death over life, death came and ruled and reigned until the Resurrection.

it is something we all have to deal with. think of a guy and a girl who desire to get drunk and have premarital sex or whatever. say one of them has AIDS and the girl gets pregnant and has the kid who is HIV positive. the "wage" of the night of sin spreads HIV, and the child must live with it, even though he had no say in the matter. it's the same thing with someone pure like Mary or Christ, still dying.

 

[howdydave]

Do you believe Mary was sinless? Do you believe Mary died? If yes to both, why did she die? Isn't the wages of sin death?

I asked this very question (I used the term "ever sinless") below and I got a very different answer than I have seen so far in the responses here.

see: http://www.christianforums.com/t7390017/

The thing that made me scratch my head was the fact that Mary was rebuked (mabye too harsh a word?) twice by Jesus. Once when they found Jesus in the Temple as a 12 year old. Once at the wedding in Canaan when she told Him to "do something."

Since I became Orthodox (was a Lutheran) I need to recall that the Orthodox concept of "sin" and the Protestant concept of "sin" are quite different.

Orthodox sin is missing the mark in our attempt to "Be ye perfect." This covers a lot more territory than "breaking the law of God" which is the standard Protestant understanding.

 

[Protoevangel]

I asked this very question

Your question was different. You referred to a supposed title of "ever sinless". I had not seen it until now.

(I used the term "ever sinless") below and I got a very different answer than I have seen so far in the responses here.

see: http://www.christianforums.com/t7390017/

The thing that made me scratch my head was the fact that Mary was rebuked (mabye too harsh a word?) twice by Jesus. Once when they found Jesus in the Temple as a 12 year old. Once at the wedding in Canaan when she told Him to "do something."

I'll reference these so-called "rebukes" in your other thread.

Since I became Orthodox (was a Lutheran) I need to recall that the Orthodox concept of "sin" and the Protestant concept of "sin" are quite different.

Orthodox sin is missing the mark in our attempt to "Be ye perfect." This covers a lot more territory than "breaking the law of God" which is the standard Protestant understanding.

Be careful about speaking for Orthodoxy when you are having such a tough time struggling with Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is not a bunch of little pieces that can be understood individually, but a complete and holistic way of life. If you reject one part, you miss the whole. Not that you are "rejecting" it at this point, but you do seem to have spent quite a while struggling with it.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

...

If you reject one part, you miss the whole.

With all proper respect, I think that this approach is similar to "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" which can very overwhelming/frustrating for people inquiring or entering into the faith; including myself. It can be said safely that as a majority, the Orthodox believe that she lived a sinless life. However, this belief is not doctrinally defined nor required for belief in order to enter into the faith. I don't believe things like these are "make or break" issues that should hinder a person from pursuing Orthodoxy. I believe that the fullness of Orthodoxy can be lived and experienced without believing that Mary was perfectly sinless, St. John C. as my witness.

 

[Joshua G.]

I have to agree with Ortho_Cat. Also, since none of us are HowdyDave or his priest, I'm not sure we would know by when his mind "should have" been eased. All of us can look back at answers we've given even years after being Orthodox that were not orthodox (in spite of our best intentions) and we will surely do so in the future as well.

 

[Protoevangel]

I have to agree with Ortho_Cat. Also, since none of us are HowdyDave or his priest, I'm not sure we would know by when his mind "should have" been eased. All of us can look back at answers we've given even years after being Orthodox that were not orthodox (in spite of our best intentions) and we will surely do so in the future as well.

Yea, that line was out of place, so I pulled it. I do think the rest of my post stands as-is.

With all proper respect, I think that this approach is similar to "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" which can very overwhelming/frustrating for people inquiring or entering into the faith; including myself. It can be said safely that as a majority, the Orthodox believe that she lived a sinless life. However, this belief is not doctrinally defined nor required for belief in order to enter into the faith. I don't believe things like these are "make or break" issues that should hinder a person from pursuing Orthodoxy. I believe that the fullness of Orthodoxy can be lived and experienced without believing that Mary was perfectly sinless, St. John C. as my witness.

As a wise man said recently: "The fact that something has not been dogmatized by an Ecumenical Council does not mean that it is merely in the realm of theological opinion in the same way as more questionable speculations on the faith." Mary's personal sinlessness has been written about by saints and is embedded in Church services and hymnography. It is most definitely part of Orthodox tradition.

"Thy wonders, O pure Theotokos, surpass the power of words. For in thee I see something beyond speech; a body that was never subject to the taint of sin. Therefore in thanksgiving I cry to thee: O pure virgin, thou art truly high above all."
- Entrance of the Most Holy Theotokos, Matins, 21 November