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Protestant Poll: Peter in Rome?

Was Peter in Rome

  • Yes he was and yes the CC is the WB

  • No he wasnt and the CC is NOT the WB

  • The WB tv network is dull and lousy


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LittleLambofJesus

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Rome is babylon, that it right. Babylon then took over the church in 300AD (in name only), which eventually become known as the roman catholic church.


Reve 18:2 and He cries-out in a strong voice saying "She falls She falls Babylon the great, and She became a Habitation/katoikhthrion <2732> of demons and a prison of every spirit unclean and a prison of every bird unclean and hated" [Isaiah 21:9]
 
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Trento

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Rome is babylon, that it right. Babylon then took over the church in 300AD (in name only), which eventually become known as the roman catholic church.


You need to go out and buy a good Christian history book. Protestants Philip Schoff or J.D.N. Kelly come to mind since their books can be found in Protestant siminaries.
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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Rome is babylon, that it right. Babylon then took over the church in 300AD (in name only), which eventually become known as the roman catholic church.

Here is a list of the bishops of Rome for the first four centuries. If you are correct (which you're not) then point out who the infiltrator is:

St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125)
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296)
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)
St. Sylvester I (314-35)
St. Marcus (336)
St. Julius I (337-52)
Liberius (352-66)
St. Damasus I (366-83)
St. Siricius (384-99)
St. Anastasius I (399-401)
St. Innocent I (401-17)
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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You need to go out and buy a good Christian history book. Protestants Philip Schoff or J.D.N. Kelly come to mind since their books can be found in Protestant siminaries.

He won't do that. For him, 2000 years of Chrisdtian history did not happen because its not in the Bible
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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Which of these is the first to have the same level of accreditation that the present claimant holds?....

Irellevant. To expect the Church and its various aspects to look like they did in the first century is illogical. The Body of Christ is a living thing, and like all living things it grows and learns and changes appearence.

This person made a specific charge about a specific time frame: 300 AD. So, since he seems to know this, he should be able to point out who the infiltrator is.

Of course, I know that he can't because the allegation is false
 
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bbbbbbb

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Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that the appellation of "Pope" to any of the cited individuals is inaccurate because the understanding of the papacy had not evolved during their lifetimes to a state where it is now understood and practiced in the Catholic church.
 
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Trento

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Which of these is the first to have the same level of accreditation that the present claimant holds?


To me the evidence that the early church considered the bishop of Rome to be the leader of the universal church seems overwhelming. The epistle of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians is just one case in point. Notice this quote from Clement who was apparently the immediate successor of Peter as bishop of Rome:
-------------------------------------------------

Quote:
The church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the church of God sojourning at Corinth, to them that are called and sanctified by the will of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied.

Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened to ourselves, we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us; and especially to that shameful and detestable sedition, utterly abhorrent to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-confident persons have kindled to such a pitch of frenzy.

-------------------------------------------
Now why would Corinth in the East be appealling to Rome for guidance in how to deal with sedition if it were not for the fact that they all recognised that Clement of Rome was of superior authority and might have the power to rule on how to resolve their differences. The letter of Clement is an incredible document. He goes through many christian principles which basically revolve around humility, doing good works, doing things in their correct order. But here is where it becomes particularly pertinent to our issue of the primacy of the bishop of Rome where in Chapter 43 he says this.

------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Chapter 43. Moses of Old Stilled the Contention Which Arose Concerning the Priestly Dignity.

And what wonder is it if those in Christ who were entrusted with such a duty by God, appointed those [ministers] before mentioned, when the blessed Moses also, a faithful servant in all his house, noted down in the sacred books all the injunctions which were given him, and when the other prophets also followed him, bearing witness with one consent to the ordinances which he had appointed? For, when rivalry arose concerning the priesthood, and the tribes were contending among themselves as to which of them should be adorned with that glorious title, he commanded the twelve princes of the tribes to bring him their rods, each one being inscribed with the name of the tribe. And he took them and bound them [together], and sealed them with the rings of the princes of the tribes, and laid them up in the tabernacle of witness on the table of God. And having shut the doors of the tabernacle, he sealed the keys, as he had done the rods, and said to them, Men and brethren, the tribe whose rod shall blossom has God chosen to fulfil the office of the priesthood, and to minister unto Him. And when the morning was come, he assembled all Israel, six hundred thousand men, and showed the seals to the princes of the tribes, and opened the tabernacle of witness, and brought forth the rods. And the rod of Aaron was found not only to have blossomed, but to bear fruit upon it. What think ye, beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would happen? Undoubtedly he knew; but he acted thus, that there might be no sedition in Israel, and that the name of the true and only God might be glorified; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

-----------------------------------------------

So what is the issue going on way back then in this very ancient church? RIVALRY AMONGST THE PRIESTHOOD. And then Clement demonstrates from the Old Testament how essential it was that one tribe should be in preeminence to avoid rivalry. God divinely agreed with Moses judgement and caused the rod of Aaron to bud. So what do we conclude from this? That God has shown clearly in history that the Bishop of Rome has budded with divine authority to settle rivalries amongst the priesthood and in doing so has borne astonishing fruit throughout the ages. Utterly incredible. 12 princes then who were required to yield to the High Priest Aaron; and in New Testament 12 apostles of these 12 Tribes James 1:1 who were likewise required to yield to one of those 12 bishops. So why then in these last days don't they submit, when the pattern is so apparent from the Old Testament?

Clement then carries on with essential commands that the way to settle these seditions is through obedience to the presbyters. Now right at the end in the benediction he says.

---------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Send back speedily to us in peace and with joy these our messengers to you: Claudius Ephebus and Valerius Bito, with Fortunatus; that they may the sooner announce to us the peace and harmony we so earnestly desire and long for [among you], and that we may the more quickly rejoice over the good order re-established among you. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, and with all everywhere that are the called of God through Him, by whom be to Him glory, honour, power, majesty, and eternal dominion, from everlasting to everlasting. Amen.

-------------------------------------------------------

Now this is a nice way of putting it but clearly Ephebus, Bito and Fortunatus were emissaries from Rome who were sent with this letter to ensure that peace and harmony and discipline were restored in Corinth and who would not be returning with news to Rome until order had been restored at Corinth. Clement makes constant mention of presbyters at Corinth in his letter but the fact that there is no mention of a bishop causes scholars to conclude that a bishop was appointed as a consequence of this letter and that the ecclesiatical authority for such an appointment was the bishop of the Church of God sojourning at Rome.

Now the other thing to remember that this document was written incredibly early in Christianity. We are talking 70-90AD so we are looking at very ancient and yet well established concepts of authority that must have been handed directly from the apostles and to which Clement is merely adding support and reinforcing in order to settle a serious schism. Also Clement mentions in numerous places how utterly abhorrent and detestable sedition and schism is to the body of Christ.

Quotes from;NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I like that choice of words
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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In in my opinion,the word "pope" is an English language corruption. Latin based languages - such as Spanish or Italian - say "papa" which just means "father".

A good allegory is the word "Sunday". In Spanish they say "Domingo" which roughly translates as "Lords Day", but the English language gives us something totally different. Same with Easter; in Latin its the Pasch, from the word for Passover. But English gives us some pagan word.

So English really screws up Catholic terminology. Thats why I crack up when people say the the Bishop of Rome is not the same thing as the Pope. He is. Its just that in English we say pope. The weird thing is that we call our priests "father" but for some reason we call the pope "pope".

Id say his most accurate title is Bishop of Rome
 
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calluna

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Irellevant. To expect the Church and its various aspects to look like they did in the first century is illogical. The Body of Christ is a living thing, and like all living things it grows and learns and changes appearence.
Thank you for a polite, informative and helpful reply.
 
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TheDag

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Can you show me according to scripture where Peter was in Rome?
You've obviously come into the conversation late. I have given examples of how not everything is recorded in the bible. others have also given examples of how everything is not recorded in the bible. The best example was the poster who made the statement that John the Baptist had five heads. You show me where in scripture it says he only had one (or two!) and then we can discuss things. I have also stated lack of evidence does not constitute proof. So the fact that the bible is silent on if Peter was in Rome or not does not proove one way or the other if he was.

You are also taking my post out of context. Littlelamb stated that if the bible is silrnt on an issue then they too would be silent. Littlelamb has stated with certainty that Peter was never in Rome. Therefore according to littlelamb the bible must proove Peter was never in Rome. I am simply sking for that evidence.

However if you like please tell me how many children Adam and Eve had at the time the Cain killed Abel. I will then ask further questions according to your answer. This will show without doubt that not everything is mentioned in the bible. Even the bible tells us not everything is mentioned in it! How easy is it then to come to the conclusion that lack of evidence does not constitute proof.
 
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MamaZ

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Well since one claims that Peter was the first pope and in Rome then the scriptures would show us this revelation of truth. But since it does not then it must not be important or God would have revealed this in the scriptures. How many children Adam and Eve had is not important to salvation. What is important are the ones mentioned for Jesus comes from the seed of David. We see through the scriptures it is Paul in Rome.
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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Well since one claims that Peter was the first pope and in Rome then the scriptures would show us this revelation of truth....

George Washington was the first president of the United States. How come thats not in the Bible?

Answer: Not all history is in the Bible. The fact that Peter went to Rome is a matter of history. Just because its not clearly recorded in the Bible is besides the point
 
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MamaZ

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George washington has nothing to do with the salvation of man or the body of Christ.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Yepperz! All of that is proven in the Scriptures.

Acts 23:11 To the yet ensuing night standing by him the Lord said "be having courage! Paul, for as thou fully-witness the-things concerning Me into Jerusalem, thus thou it is binding also into Rome to testify

#4491 used 17 times. 8 times in Gospels, 7 times in Epistles, 2 times in Revelation. This form of the word used in Revelation used 7 times, 5 times in the Epitles, 2 times in Revelation.

Reve 5:5 And one out of the elders saying to me "no be lamenting! behold! conquers the Lion, the out of the tribe of Judah the root/riza <4491> of David to open-up the scroll and the seven seals of it".

Reve 22:16 I Jesus send the Messenger of Me to testify to ye these-things upon the Out-Calleds. I AM the root/riza <4491> and the gener of David, the star, the shining, the morning.

4491. rhiza hrid'-zah apparently a primary word; a "root" (literally or figuratively):--root.
 
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Philothei

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If we are to hold it as truth for the Body of Christ then Yes it will be in the scriptures. IF it is not in the scriptures we can pass it by as hearsay and not factual for a belief.

so why do you read the gospel during the services? It does not say it in the Bible...It says for us to read it individually....

Also why you do not do as Christ instructs us to do and you do not follow the words of institutions about the Eucarist? Many Bible based chirstians do not "eat the body" or "drink the blood" of Chist? it is in the bible right ?


There are many things also that are not in the bible like we are not told not to water our plants... Are we not to water our plants?
 
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