"Protestant Genocides"

[pawnraider]

I'm currently in a discussion with someone about the excesses of our faiths and he states that the results of the Inquisition pales in comparison to the "Protestant Genocides". I don't know what they supposedly were but as a reader of history I'm not familiar with such. Was there anything such as that or do you think he may be blowing this up out of proportion.

On a somewhat related note he tried to convince me that King Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth I were Protestants but I said that they were "Protestants" only because of political expediency which he, of course, refused to accept.

 

[Tallguy88]

I'm currently in a discussion with someone about the excesses of our faiths and he states that the results of the Inquisition pales in comparison to the "Protestant Genocides". I don't know what they supposedly were but as a reader of history I'm not familiar with such. Was there anything such as that or do you think he may be blowing this up out of proportion.

On a somewhat related note he tried to convince me that King Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth I were Protestants but I said that they were "Protestants" only because of political expediency which he, of course, refused to accept.

He is correct about Henry VIII. That is far less certain with Elizabeth I. Henry would have stayed in the Church if he could have had his annullments. He had even previously been named "Defender of the Faith" by the Pope for suppressing Protestants in England before he broke away. He only basically took over the leadership of the Church while leaving it's theology and practices mostly unchanged. Then he got greedy and seized the monasteries.

But Elizabeth helped to solidify the position of the Church of England as a sort of halfway point between Catholicism and Protestantism. The CoE kept a lot of Catholic rituals and some theology, but did end up accepting several key tenants of Calvin's Reformed theology.

 

[pawnraider]

He is correct about Henry VIII. That is far less certain with Elizabeth I.

Meaning that Henry VIII was Protestant in name only then?

 

[Tallguy88]

Meaning that Henry VIII was Protestant in name only then?

I don't believe he would have considered himself a Protestant at all.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I'm currently in a discussion with someone about the excesses of our faiths and he states that the results of the Inquisition pales in comparison to the "Protestant Genocides". I don't know what they supposedly were but as a reader of history I'm not familiar with such. Was there anything such as that or do you think he may be blowing this up out of proportion.

A number of atrocities occurred during the Reformation on both sides, mainly due to a mix of political and religious reasons. For example, during the Peasants War, Luther initially wrote a treatise for the nobles to address the peasants demands. Later, he would retract that and write that

"The peasants have taken upon themselves the burden of three terrible sins against God and man; by this they have merited death in body and soul... they have sworn to be true and faithful, submissive and obedient, to their rulers... now deliberately and violently breaking this oath... they are starting a rebellion, and are violently robbing and plundering monasteries and castles which are not theirs... they have doubly deserved death in body and soul as highwaymen and murderers... they cloak this terrible and horrible sin with the gospel... thus they become the worst blasphemers of God and slanderers of his holy name”.

The German nobility would take this as justification to exterminate the revolting peasant armies and in the battle of Frankenhausen, the lopsided battle was won by the nobility with 6 casualties to estimates of 3,000 to 10,000 peasant casualties and that the leader of the rebellion, the preacher Thomas Muntzer, was burned at the stake.

 

[A_Thinker]

A number of atrocities occurred during the Reformation on both sides, mainly due to a mix of political and religious reasons. For example, during the Peasants War, Luther initially wrote a treatise for the nobles to address the peasants demands. Later, he would retract that and write that

"The peasants have taken upon themselves the burden of three terrible sins against God and man; by this they have merited death in body and soul... they have sworn to be true and faithful, submissive and obedient, to their rulers... now deliberately and violently breaking this oath... they are starting a rebellion, and are violently robbing and plundering monasteries and castles which are not theirs... they have doubly deserved death in body and soul as highwaymen and murderers... they cloak this terrible and horrible sin with the gospel... thus they become the worst blasphemers of God and slanderers of his holy name”.

The German nobility would take this as justification to exterminate the revolting peasant armies and in the battle of Frankenhausen, the lopsided battle was won by the nobility with 6 casualties to estimates of 3,000 to 10,000 peasant casualties and that the leader of the rebellion, the preacher Thomas Muntzer, was burned at the stake.

This is not, exactly, a Protestant genocide as it is a case of misdirection of the political situation by the Reformer Luther.

In other words, the genocide was not carried out by any Protestant church. It was, most likely, due to the former Catholic churchman Luther's inexperience with secular politics.

 

[DennisTate]

Meaning that Henry VIII was Protestant in name only then?

If you google the words "Forgotten White Slaves Ireland" you will find out about an important part of this subject....

 

[Greg J.]

I'm currently in a discussion with someone about the excesses of our faiths and he states that the results of the Inquisition pales in comparison to the "Protestant Genocides". I don't know what they supposedly were but as a reader of history I'm not familiar with such. Was there anything such as that or do you think he may be blowing this up out of proportion.

On a somewhat related note he tried to convince me that King Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth I were Protestants but I said that they were "Protestants" only because of political expediency which he, of course, refused to accept.

Any harm intended as the result of the will of a man is a sin, no matter what labels the people had (labels like "Protestant"). Hopefully your friend is not assuming that Christians claim to be perfect. When a Christian is self-righteous, that's the message people get, but all it really means is the Christian is exposing their sinfulness and/or revealing an aspect of their spiritual infancy.

 

[pawnraider]

Any harm intended as the result of the will of a man is a sin, no matter what labels the people had (labels like "Protestant"). Hopefully your friend is not assuming that Christians claim to be perfect. When a Christian is self-righteous, that's the message people get, but all it really means is the Christian is exposing their sinfulness and/or revealing an aspect of their spiritual infancy.

He's no friend of mine but he's trying to mitigate-is that the right word-the crimes and excesses of the Roman Catholic Institution by, in my opinion, blowing out of proportion the so-called excesses of "Protestantism".

 

[Greg J.]

There are all kinds of labels for evil, and the label most prone to error is whatever they give themselves (because they have the most biased perspective of themselves).

They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. (Titus 1:16, 1984 NIV)

If he is perceiving "so-called excuses" then perhaps he is prejudiced—judging a large group of people in accordance with the actions of a few.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

This is not, exactly, a Protestant genocide as it is a case of misdirection of the political situation by the Reformer Luther.

In other words, the genocide was not carried out by any Protestant church. It was, most likely, due to the former Catholic churchman Luther's inexperience with secular politics.

Correct, that's why I said that these atrocities were a combination of religion and politics. As for an actual "genocide" of one particular race, I don't think this type of extermination really comes about until the 20th century.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Part of being a Christ follower is acknowledging our sins and repenting, not sweeping them under the rug and pretending they don't exist. That holds true for the Church (universal) as well.

 

[PloverWing]

I agree with JayW here. I don't know whether the body count for Catholics or Protestants is higher, but both groups have sinned in this area. Within Protestantism, a number of churches (including my own) engaged in religious persecution. We do well to acknowledge this and to make sure it never happens again.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm currently in a discussion with someone about the excesses of our faiths and he states that the results of the Inquisition pales in comparison to the "Protestant Genocides". I don't know what they supposedly were but as a reader of history I'm not familiar with such. Was there anything such as that or do you think he may be blowing this up out of proportion.

On a somewhat related note he tried to convince me that King Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth I were Protestants but I said that they were "Protestants" only because of political expediency which he, of course, refused to accept.

He's no friend of mine but he's trying to mitigate-is that the right word-the crimes and excesses of the Roman Catholic Institution by, in my opinion, blowing out of proportion the so-called excesses of "Protestantism".

Clearly to me, and apparent to many, over the last 50 years a lot of false history was published, ---- as often told "the 'victor' always re-writes history" or
for today, politicians, governments and religous groups ALWAYS RE-WRITE history - like you said
to try to "mitigate" , but instead of seeking or ever telling the truth, they change it and mis-represent it as much as they can or needed to for their deceptive purposes.
i.e. in any case, finding out the truth, today, is much much harder than it was just 50 years ago,
or even 500 years ago, in many aspects.....

Don't basically believe anything published recently... unless it is confirmed also over the past 20 centuries by SCRIPTURE (Prophecy) and other non-biased or at least non-self-defensive accounts.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We do well to acknowledge this and to make sure it never happens again.

? This idea while maybe popular,
is not what Scripture says is going to happen
as has happened for hundreds or thousands of years already -
what YHWH'S WORD (SCRIPTURE) says is going to happen did and is and will happen and nothing anyone does can stop it nor change it. (over all).

Only a person can stop doing what they themselves do,
turn to God, (repent), and start doing what is right to live right, God Willing.

 

[PloverWing]

? This idea while maybe popular,
is not what Scripture says is going to happen
as has happened for hundreds or thousands of years already -
what YHWH'S WORD (SCRIPTURE) says is going to happen did and is and will happen and nothing anyone does can stop it nor change it. (over all).

Only a person can stop doing what they themselves do,
turn to God, (repent), and start doing what is right to live right, God Willing.

I'm not quite this pessimistic. Scripture says that Christians will face persecution, but Scripture doesn't say that the church will necessarily persecute others in Jesus' name. Insofar as we all together make up the church, we Christians can work to prevent our churches from engaging in further persecution. I think there is hope that we can succeed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm not quite this pessimistic. Scripture says that Christians will face persecution, but Scripture doesn't say that the church will necessarily persecute others in Jesus' name.

pessimistic ? no, not at all !

But read what Scripture says - all through Genesis through Revelation.
and
you partly know already a little of the history of the last 2000 years (most is hidden)...

Don't be pessimistic, no, but do believe what SCRIPTURE SAYS (especially the first 3 or more chapters in the BOOK OF REVELATION ---- not good about today)...

 

[Root of Jesse]

This is not, exactly, a Protestant genocide as it is a case of misdirection of the political situation by the Reformer Luther.

In other words, the genocide was not carried out by any Protestant church. It was, most likely, due to the former Catholic churchman Luther's inexperience with secular politics.

By this logic, you can say that there were no genocides (i.e. the Inquisitions) conducted by the Catholic Church, either. The Catholic Church tried heretics and tried to convert them. If they were unrepentent, after giving them any chance to repent, they were turned over to the state.

 

[A_Thinker]

By this logic, you can say that there were no genocides (i.e. the Inquisitions) conducted by the Catholic Church, either. The Catholic Church tried heretics and tried to convert them. If they were unrepentent, after giving them any chance to repent, they were turned over to the state.

Except for the Crusades against religious Communities declared "heretical" by the Catholic Church (the Cathars in Southern France, for example), where the Catholic Church's leadership (Pope Innocent III) gathered and sent a fighting force to convert/eliminate those holding to the "heresy".

The "Albigensian Crusade", by which this is commonly known, ... was responsible for the deaths of an estimated 2 million persons over the course of 20 years (1209 - 1229) ...

Albigensian Crusade - Wikipedia

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Except for the Crusades against religious Communities declared "heretical" by the Catholic Church (the Cathars in Southern France, for example), where the Catholic Church's leadership (Pope Innocent III) gathered and sent a fighting force to convert/eliminate those holding to the "heresy".

The "Albigensian Crusade", by which this is commonly known, ... was responsible for the deaths of an estimated 2 million persons over the course of 20 years (1209 - 1229) ...

Albigensian Crusade - Wikipedia

Amein, And thousands of other times..... all around the world through history....

Still we trust in YHWH, for HE is FAITHFUL and JUST:
Psalm 9:12-14Common English Bible (CEB)
12 Because the one who avenges bloodshed
remembers those who suffer;