Protestant errors and inventions (3)

[Rev Randy]

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. [Revelation 19:7]
Note it does not say fiancee.

 

[Albion]

Once again, any man with a true calling to the priesthood understands the discipline of celibacy. For Catholics, what is of the Church and what is of God are one and the same. That's how close we are. There is a marriage going on here.

You mean a connection or a bond, not a marriage in the usual sense.

To decry the celibacy of priests is just an attempt at accommodating the obstinacy of men. Like I said, persons with a true calling to the priesthood don't suffer the same misunderstandings as your typical protestant.

In this particular discussion, it's only the Roman Catholics who seem to be conflicted, trying to make this innovation seem like it's something other than just a church invention.

 

[MoreCoffee]

But who are they being disobedient and rebellious towards? It's not a discipline that God requires. God actually says that it is not good for man to be alone, and if a man feels called to the ministry, but also desires to take wife, you create an unnecessary conflict of interest there by enforcing this "discipline".

God doesn't say what's written in bold above. What God said is "It is not good that the man should be alone" because God was discussing a specific man, Adam by name. And God also said, "everyone should continue before God in the state in which he was called. ... Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife. "

 

[Rev Randy]

But who are they being disobedient and rebellious towards? It's not a discipline that God requires. God actually says that it is not good for man to be alone, and if a man feels called to the ministry, but also desires to take wife, you create an unnecessary conflict of interest there by enforcing this "discipline".

Paul taught this also that it is better to marry than to burn with desire. But he also prefaced it saying it was better to remain unmarried.
I would say if one desire to be a Roman Rite Priest, he'd better make sure he can live the life. If not , it's not the choice for him.
I do understand why this is spoken so hard against as some wonder about those feeling the call but also feeling the need to be married. So i guess it boils down to which can you live without. If the answer is neither then the "call" wasn't as strong as it was supposed.

 

[Rev Randy]

God doesn't say what's written in bold above. What God said is "It is not good that the man should be alone" because God was discussing a specific man, Adam by name. And God also said, "everyone should continue before God in the state in which he was called. ... Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife. "

 

[Stryder06]

God doesn't say what's written in bold above. What God said is "It is not good that the man should be alone" because God was discussing a specific man, Adam by name. And God also said, "everyone should continue before God in the state in which he was called. ... Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife. "

What God said to Adam applies to all men. As it stands now, some have the gift of being single, while others do not.

Paul said the lower portion in bold. And if I'm not mistaken he also said: But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn

No one is discrediting Paul's admonition to remain single, but it wasn't a command or even a discipline. It was a suggestion. Does your church suggest that ministers remain single?

 

[Stryder06]

Paul taught this also that it is better to marry than to burn with desire. But he also prefaced it saying it was better to remain unmarried.
I would say if one desire to be a Roman Rite Priest, he'd better make sure he can live the life. If not , it's not the choice for him.
I do understand why this is spoken so hard against as some wonder about those feeling the call but also feeling the need to be married. So i guess it boils down to which can you live without. If the answer is neither then the "call" wasn't as strong as it was supposed.

TadofLamb specifiying that this was a discipline and not a doctrine helped, but my issue is with any one man telling another that they aren't suited to serve God in the office of priest because they want to be married, or if they become a priest first, but then want to get married, that they can no longer function in that office. I can't imagine the mental stress that would put on a man, and it's for no reason other than because the church says so.

 

[Albion]

It's still an evasion. There are plenty of reasons for remaining celibate, but when the church imposes this rule, it's an error and an invention.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What God said to Adam applies to all men.

Does that make marriage compulsory?

I am very glad that sola scriptura is not my sine qua non.

As it stands now, some have the gift of being single, while others do not.
...

Yeah, some do have the grace of celibacy. They are the ones who are called to be priests. And if, at some later date, they decide that they need to marry then can, and then they look after wife and children in some employment that pays what is needed to do that.

 

[Stryder06]

Does that make marriage compulsory?

I am very glad that sola scriptura is not my sine qua non.

Did I say that? I said it was applicable. In other words, it's good for a man to be married. There's no sin if he isn't. There's no sin if he want's to be.

Yeah, some do have the grace of celibacy. They are the ones who are called to be priests. And if, at some later date, they decide that they need to marry then can, and then they look after wife and children in some employment that pays what is needed to do that.

Like I said, my entire problem is with this idea that your church has the right to say "Oh, looks like you lost the grace of celibacy so you're no longer fit to function as a priest." Or "Yes you can be a priest, but you can't be married."

The call to the ministry is a personal one that no one besides the one being called, and call know about. Doesn't timothy say that a bishop ought to be husband of one wife?

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
Like I said, my entire problem is with this idea that your church has the right to say "Oh, looks like you lost the grace of celibacy so you're no longer fit to function as a priest." Or "Yes you can be a priest, but you can't be married."

Better to worry about your own faith tradition ....

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. [Revelation 19:7]
Note it does not say fiancee.

The use of "wife" is, as you said earlier, due to the legal custom of betrothing. There was a legal binding between the man and woman which saw the woman already as the wife due to its impending fulfillment, however unfulfilled. Paul does however say to the church of Corinth, that it is to be presented as a pure, virgin bride which speaks of betrothing, not a completed marriage. The idea is that the betrothal has taken place, and the wedding will ultimately come underway and be consummated at His return in connection with the new Jerusalem. The church is to remain faithful and pure to her one husband until the day of her marriage.

I don't have much more to say on this. The text is clear that the marriage of Christ to the church has not happened yet, and is instead a betrothal until the day of His return. If you want to equate betrothal with marriage, then I must ultimately disagree.

 

[Stryder06]

Better to worry about your own faith tradition ....

Nothing to worry about there. And in truth I'm not worried about yours. Just wondering what gives your church the right to impose this chooise on someone who's desire is to both be a priest and a husband.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Nothing to worry about there. And in truth I'm not worried about yours. Just wondering what gives your church the right to impose this chooise on someone who's desire is to both be a priest and a husband.

But it is not your faith tradition that you're opining about, and your comments are inaccurate.

 

[1Co13]

But it is not your faith tradition that you're opining about, and your comments are inaccurate.

No, hes right.

 

[Stryder06]

But it is not your faith tradition that you're opining about, and your comments are inaccurate.

I'm making comments (and asking quesitons) based off of what you're telling me. If I'm inaccurate it's because you are.

 

[Rev Randy]

TadofLamb specifiying that this was a discipline and not a doctrine helped, but my issue is with any one man telling another that they aren't suited to serve God in the office of priest because they want to be married, or if they become a priest first, but then want to get married, that they can no longer function in that office. I can't imagine the mental stress that would put on a man, and it's for no reason other than because the church says so.

So you believe in the office of a priest?
One can function in that office without being clergy. Just in a different way. It's not like they are given the boot. Just given a different type of ministry.
The best part of being an unmarried pastor is he doesn't ever get embarrassed when his wife runs of with the piano player

 

[Rev Randy]

Nothing to worry about there. And in truth I'm not worried about yours. Just wondering what gives your church the right to impose this chooise on someone who's desire is to both be a priest and a husband.

That same right as yours saying to abstain from certain meats and it's better to be vegetarian.
In truth I'd say it's to be more like Christ. I admire those who devote themselves to celibacy. I'm just glad I wasn't called into such as I'd have been a miserable failure. But that's just old randy Randy. I'm better now that I'm older.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm making comments (and asking quesitons) based off of what you're telling me. If I'm inaccurate it's because you are.

Please, don't cast the blame at me as if I forced you to make the inaccurate statements that you have made. Own your own messages.

 

[Stryder06]

So you believe in the office of a priest?

Pastor, Bishop, Priest...all the same to me

One can function in that office without being clergy. Just in a different way. It's not like they are given the boot. Just given a different type of ministry.
The best part of being an unmarried pastor is he doesn't ever get embarrassed when his wife runs of with the piano player

Does he still lead the local congregation? I'm guessing that once a preist always a priest, kind of like once a pastor always a pastor. So it's all well and good to say "He's still a priest" because technically he is. That however seems to simply be a nicer way of saying "We won't need your services anymore".