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Protestant errors and inventions (3)

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MoreCoffee

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A less convincing set of statements could hardly be imagined.

So, is that the best you can manage?

If so, your claim is dismissed as the bogus nonsense that it is.

Josephus will set the stage.

8. For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, (8) which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add any thing to them, to take any thing from them, or to make any change in them; but it is become natural to all Jews immediately, and from their very birth, to esteem these books to contain Divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be willingly to die for them. For it is no new thing for our captives, many of them in number, and frequently in time, to be seen to endure racks and deaths of all kinds upon the theatres, that they may not be obliged to say one word against our laws and the records that contain them; whereas there are none at all among the Greeks who would undergo the least harm on that account, no, nor in case all the writings that are among them were to be destroyed; for they take them to be such discourses as are framed agreeably to the inclinations of those that write them; and they have justly the same opinion of the ancient writers, since they see some of the present generation bold enough to write about such affairs, wherein they were not present, nor had concern enough to inform themselves about them from those that knew them; examples of which may be had in this late war of ours, where some persons have written histories, and published them, without having been in the places concerned, or having been near them when the actions were done; but these men put a few things together by hearsay, and insolently abuse the world, and call these writings by the name of Histories.
Against Apion 1:8

And now 1 Macc 9:27

[27] Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.

14:41 [41]
"And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise,

And of course there are Christ's words that also confirm all of this.

IIRC, all of the apocrapha was written after Artixerxes, during the time when the lineage of prophets had ceased. Therefore, all of them are uninspired, unlike God-breathed scripture (aka 66 books).

Not many writers of either testament were holders of the Prophet's office yet Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John Nehimiah's biographer, Ezra's biographer, the author of 1 & 2 Samual, 1 & 2 Kings, Proverbs, the Song of Songs, and so on managed to write under inspiration, did they not?
 
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Rev Randy

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I don't look up dictionaries to find out why "a Bible with only 66 books" is allegedly an "error". Nor do I intend to do a search on the Web for catholic answers.
If you don't want to answer my questions just don't do it. I believe the Bible is complete and is composed of 66 books.


"If you continue in My word . . . you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:31-32).

So you believe the reformer were correct in removing the rest?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Josephus will set the stage.

8. For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, (8) which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add any thing to them, to take any thing from them, or to make any change in them; but it is become natural to all Jews immediately, and from their very birth, to esteem these books to contain Divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be willingly to die for them. For it is no new thing for our captives, many of them in number, and frequently in time, to be seen to endure racks and deaths of all kinds upon the theatres, that they may not be obliged to say one word against our laws and the records that contain them; whereas there are none at all among the Greeks who would undergo the least harm on that account, no, nor in case all the writings that are among them were to be destroyed; for they take them to be such discourses as are framed agreeably to the inclinations of those that write them; and they have justly the same opinion of the ancient writers, since they see some of the present generation bold enough to write about such affairs, wherein they were not present, nor had concern enough to inform themselves about them from those that knew them; examples of which may be had in this late war of ours, where some persons have written histories, and published them, without having been in the places concerned, or having been near them when the actions were done; but these men put a few things together by hearsay, and insolently abuse the world, and call these writings by the name of Histories.
Against Apion 1:8

And now 1 Macc 9:27

[27] Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.

14:41 [41]
"And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise,

And of course there are Christ's words that also confirm all of this.

IIRC, all of the apocrapha was written after Artixerxes, during the time when the lineage of prophets had ceased. Therefore, all of them are uninspired, unlike God-breathed scripture (aka 66 books).



A less convincing set of statements could hardly be imagined.

So, is that the best you can manage?

If so, your claim is dismissed as the bogus nonsense that it is.



Not many writers of either testament were holders of the Prophet's office yet Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John Nehimiah's biographer, Ezra's biographer, the author of 1 & 2 Samual, 1 & 2 Kings, Proverbs, the Song of Songs, and so on managed to write under inspiration, did they not?

While there is much Prophesy in the Bible, the Bible is not only Prophesy; many books are chronicles and history. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther on 1 Maccabees:
This is another book not to be found in the Hebrew Bible. Yet it's words and speech adhere to the same style as other book of sacred Scripture. This book would not have been unworthy of a place among them, because it is very necessary and helpful for an understanding of chapter 11 of the prophet Daniel.

Luther felt a bit differently about 2 Maccabees but says:
But we include it anyway, for the sake of the good story of the seven Maccabean martyrs and their mother , and other things as well... However the whole thing is left and referred to the pious reader to judge and decide.

Luther's quotes taken from the American Edition of Luther's Works, 35:350-353
 
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MoreCoffee

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It's not often that Josephus' works are regarded as the standard for setting the canon of sacred scripture. I cannot help but think that desperation was the motive behind quoting him. And it ought to be noted that brother Standing Up did claim that "Maccabees itself disclaims any inspiration" But failed to deliver the requested disclaimer:
 
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Albion

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That's right. Reformers were correct in their assessment that the Apocrypha was non-canonical.

In fact, it's not that sexy a topic at all. These books are known to everyone to have a different character than the rest of the books of the Bible, only some of the Jews of Jesus' time accepted them as Scripture (unlike the Torah, etc.), and they were in question from the time that they were included in the canon right on up to the time of the Reformation when the Roman church again addressed the issue on its own.

To talk about the "Reformers removing...." is little more than an argument for the sake of an argument or, perhaps more accurately, an argument looking for an issue.
 
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Albion

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The Orthodox include them in the canon.

The Oriental Orthodox do too.

The Ethiopian Church does too.

So, it is true that the "reformers" removed them.

See here

Yes, I guess it is possible to name a dozen churches that accept the Apocrypha and a few thousand which do not. ZZzzzz.

Everything I wrote remains correct.
 
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bbbbbbb

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The Orthodox include them in the canon.

The Oriental Orthodox do too.

The Ethiopian Church does too.

So, it is true that the "reformers" removed them.

See here

The Ethiopian Church has the largest canon of all, including just about every possible book. Their canon is just as acceptable to the Catholic Church as is the Oriental Orthodox canon (which includes additional books) and the Protestant canon (which is the smallest of the bunch).
 
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Albion

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The Ethiopian Church has the largest canon of all, including just about every possible book. Their canon is just as acceptable to the Catholic Church as is the Oriental Orthodox canon (which includes additional books) and the Protestant canon (which is the smallest of the bunch).

That's right. MoreCoffee misinformed us by saying that all these Catholic/Orthodox churches "include them." A look at the chart on the link he provided will show the reader that these churches are far from agreeing on WHICH of the Apocryphal books is accepted by each church body.

And then there are all the Catholic/Orthodox churches that he did not mention because, one presumes, he knows that these churches that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Protestant Reformers disagree significantly between themselves, and with the churches he did name, regarding which of the Apocryphal books they accept.
 
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Standing Up

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A less convincing set of statements could hardly be imagined.

So, is that the best you can manage?

If so, your claim is dismissed as the bogus nonsense that it is.



Not many writers of either testament were holders of the Prophet's office yet Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John Nehimiah's biographer, Ezra's biographer, the author of 1 & 2 Samual, 1 & 2 Kings, Proverbs, the Song of Songs, and so on managed to write under inspiration, did they not?

Josephus already answered your objection about the prophetic line and former books. Point remains they viewed the period from roughly Ezra to John the Baptist as uninspired writings, whereas the former books were considered divine. Again, Maccabees itself makes the same claim for itself (uninspired) and the reason for it (no valid prophetic line).

As to the NT, we agree on the 27 books, so no need for you to pretend otherwise. BTW, any idea why the sons of thunder were so named?
 
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MoreCoffee

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The Ethiopian Church has the largest canon of all, including just about every possible book. Their canon is just as acceptable to the Catholic Church as is the Oriental Orthodox canon (which includes additional books) and the Protestant canon (which is the smallest of the bunch).

Not really. Jews have a smaller one. Muslims do too.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Yes, I guess it is possible to name a dozen churches that accept the Apocrypha and a few thousand which do not.

...
Probably 30,000 denominations and independents and non-denominations reject them because they all swallowed the same koolaide ;)

But for all their multiplicity of names and creeds they still represent only about 25% of Christianity. The other 75% receives the 73 books that Catholics count as canonical.
 
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Standing Up

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That's right. MoreCoffee misinformed us by saying that all these Catholic/Orthodox churches "include them." A look at the chart on the link he provided will show the reader that these churches are far from agreeing on WHICH of the Apocryphal books is accepted by each church body.

And then there are all the Catholic/Orthodox churches that he did not mention because, one presumes, he knows that these churches that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Protestant Reformers disagree significantly between themselves, and with the churches he did name, regarding which of the Apocryphal books they accept.

Correct. The so-called two groups that each claim to be #1 and unchanged disagree on the books of the apocraphy as divine. So much for that.

So, the 66 books are correct as canon. And the reason why the two (divine vs uninspired) are differentiated has been shown. Indeed, at least one of the books says itself there were no prophets during the time to "authorize" as inspired them. The error remains theirs.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Muslims have an aberrant canon which includes the Qu'ran, Some would also include the Hadith. Obviously the Jews have a smaller canon, because they reject all of the New Testament.

That's right. And Protestants reject part of the canon too.

It's all a matter of cutting out the parts of the bible that one doesn't want.
 
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tadoflamb

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The concept that the Roman Catholic Church or any ecclesiastical power is 100% inerrant is a view founded upon a doctrine of men who seek to play kingdom building.

Thank you for that. Some time ago I started a thread on the concept that no Church or denomination is 100% doctrinally correct. Problem is, if every denomination is teaching error, how do you recognize that error? For example, what is the error of your group? Furthermore, why would any sincere Christian visibly attach themselves to a denomination that they know is teaching error even if they have no mechanism to detect what that error is?

It's impossible for me to believe that God became Incarnate, lived among us, established a Church and now it's just a guessing game as to what is the fullness of His revealed Truth. No, I believe the Sacred Scriptures when they tell me that Christ's Church will be visible, it will have an authentic authority to teach and it is the pillar and foundation of all Truth.

Anything less is unacceptable.
 
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Tzaousios

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Saying we believe in Christ does not make you Christ's friends just though I remind you of what is written in scripture.

Still waiting for you to address the SPECIFICS of the replies that were made to you. This is a space for discussion, not your unilateral declarations of rhetoric.
 
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tadoflamb

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We're going to be hearing from the Book of Wisdom this upcoming Sunday. I think you guys are really missing out. Here's the readings if you want to score along at home:

Twenty-third Sunday in Ordinary Time

It's not just the fact that books have gone missing but the books that remain have been toyed with as well. As evidence I submit Malachi 1:11 which we discussed earlier in this thread. What a Catholic bible calls a 'perfect sacrifice' an unauthorized protestant translation reads 'pure grain offering'. Aside from the attempt to mitigate the fact that the Catholic mass fulfills Malachi's prophecy, how does this translation relate to protestantism? I sort of doubt you're offering pure grain offerings east to west, sunrise to sunset.
 
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