Protestant Doctrine

[ksen]

Jesus never meant for there to be denominations. He established His Church on Earth. Paul said we were to be of one accord. There were no denominations until someone decided to disagree with the established Church.

You are operating under the impression that the Church Jesus founded is the Catholic church.

I reject that premise.

 

[Lynn73]

Jesus never meant for there to be denominations. He established His Church on Earth. Paul said we were to be of one accord. There were no denominations until someone decided to disagree with the established Church.

Which, according to Catholics, had to be the Roman Catholic church, of course. And, of course, I disagree. Christ's church includes every believer, millions of which have no relationship to the RCC.

 

[Redwolf]

1. According to the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic Church, it is IMPOSSIBLE for Scriptures to teach at varience with the teachings of the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic denomination. According to that faith community, the Bible says what it says it says, only that denomination has the Authority to say what it says and whatever it says it says, it says - even if such is found nowhere, it's "there" because the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic denomination has said so, and the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic denomination is infallible. No support is needed to support this because the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic Church is accountable only to God as the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic Church alone determines.


2. Friend, a Catholic scholar, especially if ordained, who teaches that an official doctrine of the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic denomination is "unscriptural" will be dealt with severly by the Church. While such are no longer burned at the stake, the Church does not take kindly to such and if not repentant, he will likely be looking for a job. As you well know, priests take a vow to uphold whatever the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic Church teaches - period, unconditionally. It's therefore not shocking to this Protestant that Catholic priests uphold the teachings of the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic Church - period, unconditionally. He may come to one conclusion based on his study of Scripture but while it's unclear is the written Word of God is infallible, the words of the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic Church are infallible.



Pax.


- Josiah


.

When you say something, you really do!
Blessings!

 

[cathmomof3]

Why study something you don't have the authority to say what it means? Wouldn't it be more profitable for you as a Catholic to spend more time in writings that contain definitive interpretations of the Scripture?

You completely misunderstand the Catholic Faith. I am ALLOWED to draw my own conclusions and those conclusions that I have drawn match up perfectly to what the Catholic Church teaches. BTW, there are really only a handful of things that ALL Protestants and Catholics disagree on the interpretation of in the Bible.

 

[ksen]

I was speaking to the poster of Fitzmeyer's article excerpt, not to Fitzmeyer.

The article excerpt was about where Fitzmeyer's studies were taking him, which is not where the Catholic authority wanted him to go.

Are you now saying you have no problem with the conclusions Fitzmeyer was coming to? Was it only the fact that it was posted where people could read it that you were objecting to?

 

[Redwolf]

The "church" establised in the book of Acts was "catholic" but not "Roman Catholic" there is a big difference there..pax..Kim
The met in houses, they didn't wear special garments and hats or have a book of rules telling the believers how what Paul or Luke said should be interpreted..They were things all added later by men..

You deny the power of the Holy Spirit to guide holy men of old and new to speak according to HIS influence?

 

[cathmomof3]

Sort of like your preconceived notions of the Protestants that you refuse to give up?

Like what? As far as I can see, we have only been discussing what protestants THINK Catholics believe.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

You are operating under the impression that the Church Jesus founded is the Catholic church.

I reject that premise.

As do I...


IMO, Catholics, Mormons and some others have institutionalized Christianity, self-claiming that their particular denomination essentially is the church of Christ. I don't buy into this institutionalization of our faith and our Lord or this obsession with denominations.


MY view...


Pax.


- Josiah



.

 

[Redwolf]

I would ask you in return: why listen to what you have been told without investigating for yourself? Do you, as a Protestant, only listen to what others say about the Bible, or do you read it?

The Catechism is easy to understand. It is authoritative. It is not difficult to flip through, using the index of topics to satisfy your curiosity about whatever is on your mind at a given moment. It is also not a magical tome of doom that will convert Protestants to Catholicism against their will. The only reason I ever recommend non-Catholics to read from the Catechism is to better equip them in their own rational arguments. What profit is there to one who argues without knowing what it is he is arguing with?

The catechism has this to say about Muslims:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

The pope says this about Muslims:
http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=3222
In a little noted interview, Pope Benedict XVI says a reformation can't happen:

Now Pope Benedict XVI has let it be known that he does not believe Islam can reform. This we learn from the transcript of a January 5 US radio interview with one of Benedict's students and friends, Father Joseph Fessio, SJ, the provost of Ave Maria University in Naples, Florida, posted on the Asia Times Online forum by a sharp-eyed reader. For the pope to refute the fundamental premise of US policy is news of inestimable strategic importance, yet a Google News scan reveals that not a single media outlet has taken notice of what Fessio told interviewer Hugh Hewitt last week. No matter: still and small as Benedict's voice might be, it carries further than earthquake and whirlwind.​

Where would YOU place the greater authority?

 

[ksen]

You completely misunderstand the Catholic Faith. I am ALLOWED to draw my own conclusions and those conclusions that I have drawn match up perfectly to what the Catholic Church teaches. BTW, there are really only a handful of things that ALL Protestants and Catholics disagree on the interpretation of in the Bible.

You mean you are allowed to draw your own conclusions as long as your conclusions don't contradict the Magiterium, right?

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Some of MY thoughts...


Protestants embrace accountability - the whole point of Sola Scriptura. They consider themselves, their teachers and their denominations to be accountable - UNDER God, not equal or above Him and His written Word. They consider their words accountable to God's written Word - not the other way around. The embrace of private interpretation - so central to Catholicism - is rejected. Protestants are apt to not claim "we were given some secret dogmas which God kept out of His written Word and gave to us instead, and we'll tell you these dogmas when we want to, and whatever we say is True because we tell you it is, and whatever we say is True is infallible and unaccountable because we say it is." Protestants reject this principle of epistemology.


MY view...


Pax.


- Josiah


.

Agreed.

"What kind of a God would reveal his love and redemption in terms so technical and concepts so profound that only an elite corps of professional scholars could understand them? God does speak in primitive terms because he is addressing himslef to primitives. At the same time, there is enough profundity contained in Scripture to keep the most astute and erudite scholars busily engaged in their theological inquiries for a lifetime." -Sproul

CC&E-PS-I have to spread the reputation around before I can give you more, CJ!

 

[ksen]

Like what? As far as I can see, we have only been discussing what protestants THINK Catholics believe.

Like the "thousands of denominations" in Protestantism.

 

[Redwolf]

You completely misunderstand the Catholic Faith. I am ALLOWED to draw my own conclusions and those conclusions that I have drawn match up perfectly to what the Catholic Church teaches. BTW, there are really only a handful of things that ALL Protestants and Catholics disagree on the interpretation of in the Bible.

Name five.

According to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, Catholic men and women are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the bishops of the Church interpret a passage and they are to accept what the bishops teach as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it. ( Catechism 85, 87, 100, 862, 891, 939, 2034, 2037, 2041, 2050)

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."[47] This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",[49] the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

Do you know the meaning of docility?

100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him. Article 3

 

[Look Homeward Anglican]

The article excerpt was about where Fitzmeyer's studies were taking him, which is not where the Catholic authority wanted him to go.

Are you now saying you have no problem with the conclusions Fitzmeyer was coming to? Was it only the fact that it was posted where people could read it that you were objecting to?

I have never heard of Fitzmyer before today. I have a huge stack of the writings of Church fathers, my bible, and lots of prayer books to read, which already I fear I will not have time to finish before my life ends. It is doubtful I will ever get around to reading this fellow. I am sure he is "noted" by someone, somewhere, but in my circles he is not (not to discredit him in any way, since I know nothing of him.)

 

[Lynn73]

As do I...


IMO, Catholics, Mormons and some others have institutionalized Christianity, self-claiming that their particular denomination essentially is the church of Christ. I don't buy into this institutionalization of our faith and our Lord or this obsession with denominations.


MY view...


Pax.


- Josiah



.

Well said!

 

[Lynn73]

The "church" establised in the book of Acts was "catholic" but not "Roman Catholic" there is a big difference there..pax..Kim
The met in houses, they didn't wear special garments and hats or have a book of rules telling the believers how what Paul or Luke said should be interpreted..They were things all added later by men..

Agreed and thank you!

 

[simonthezealot]

Ok. I would like to say that I do realise that there were substantial abuses at the time that Martin Luther broke away and I am not proud of how individuals in the Church handled those abuses. I can understand where your perspective comes from. I was just trying to show that it was not the "truth" of the Church - ie, the Church's doctrines etc that were at fault, but some of the individuals in the church..

You realise that Johann Tetzel was commissioned by pope leo x for the selling of indulgences, this was not - as the RCC would have you believe "a fringe part of the church but not the church itself" .
And there my friend is the truth.

 

[icedtea]

You realise that Johann Tetzel was commissioned by pope leo x for the selling of indulgences, this was not - as the RCC would have you believe "a fringe part of the church but not the church itself" .
And there my friend is the truth.

Absolutely. This wrecks the doctrine of the catholic church, though they will twist it somehow to claim it didn't happen,
In fact, this page here has done a great job of knocking down the walls of untruth which the catholic church teaches.
Praise Jesus for that!

 

[edie19]

. . . No, we don't believe we're the only true church, we believe all true Christians make up Christ's church, including the Christians in the church down the road that has a different name on the door.

Amen to that - the Church truly is catholic (universal).

edie

 

[simonthezealot]

Absolutely. This wrecks the doctrine of the catholic church, though they will twist it somehow to claim it didn't happen,
In fact, this page here has done a great job of knocking down the walls of untruth which the catholic church teaches.
Praise Jesus for that!

We call it "mental gymnastics"