"Protestant" Demonologist/Excorcist?

[Dave-W]

If you are not familiar with the Lutheran practice, how can you say that you have a problem with Lutherans doing exorcisms?

Because any denomination that puts it out there that they do that will eventually have unqualified people assigned to that task for a variety of reasons.

I do NOT have a problem with believers who identify as Lutheran doing this ministry. But when it becomes part of the denominational structure, problems will arise.

 

[Albion]

In a very hypothetical situation, would it be right or "ok" for a Non-Catholic man, typically Protestant of some sort, to dedicate his life to the study of Demons, the Occult and, if necessary, carry out exorcisms? Or should we leave it all to the Catholics (mainly the exorcisms part)?

I'd say it's all right--if we're talking about a Protestant clergyman. Catholics, you know, call in a priest who is authorized by his church to perform exorcisms; they don't just attempt to do something by themselves.

 

[Dave-W]

I'd say it's all right--if we're talking about a Protestant clergyman.

What makes you think that clergy are qualified to this task? Do seminaries hand out charismatic gifts with diplomas?

 

[Archivist]

Because any denomination that puts it out there that they do that will eventually have unqualified people assigned to that task for a variety of reasons.

I believe you are makinga ssumptions without knowing the facts. According to the LCMS website, " The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod certainly believes in the existence of Satan and of demonic beings, and individual LCMS pastors have participated from time to time in rites of exorcism. The LCMS has no "official position" on "demonic possession," however, nor does it subscribe officially to any formal rite of exorcism or have "special clergy assigned to this task."

So, exactly who is getting "assigned to the task" as you claim?

 

[Albion]

What makes you think that clergy are qualified to this task?

For several reasons. They are trained in theology and, when it comes to this particular matter, in the Christian understanding of demons, possession, and etc., we're talking about theology. This is nothing that a layperson with a book on the occult and a suspicion that someone needs an exorcism should be undertaking on his own authority. Second, it's a function of the church and should not be done in a haphazard way.

Do seminaries hand out charismatic gifts with diplomas?

Churches and seminaries most certainly do educate their exorcists and, in some church bodies, license them after a screening process.

If you think everyone who says he's been empowered by the Holy Spirit should be engaged in such activity, that's your belief. However, I cannot give that advice to our friend "Chickfula1" when he raises the issue and asks his question.

 

[Dave-W]

I believe you are makinga ssumptions without knowing the facts. According to the LCMS website, " The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod certainly believes in the existence of Satan and of demonic beings, and individual LCMS pastors have participated from time to time in rites of exorcism. The LCMS has no "official position" on "demonic possession," however, nor does it subscribe officially to any formal rite of exorcism or have "special clergy assigned to this task."

So, exactly who is getting "assigned to the task" as you claim?

From your mention of Lutheran exorcism. If the denom takes no position nor train its clergy then it is not a "Lutheran" thing at all.

Do the other Lutheran groups (ELCA, WELS, Etc) take the same stance?

 

[Dave-W]

"What makes you think that clergy are qualified to this task?"
For several reasons. They are trained in theology and, when it comes to this particular matter, in the Christian understanding of demons, possession, and etc. This is nothing that a layperson with a book on the occult and a suspicion that someone needs an exorcism should be taking on. Second, it's a function of the church and should not be done in a willy-nilly way without the church's authorization.

I can agree to one extent or another with what you say here.

"Do seminaries hand out charismatic gifts with diplomas?"
Churches and seminaries most certainly do educate their exorcists and, in some church bodies, license them after a screening process.

That does not answer the question. I asked about supernatural charismatic gifts like healing the sick, prophecy, word of knowledge, etc. Discerning of spirits is in that same list. (1 Cor 12)

Please see a previous post of mine (#15) for a description of WHY the use of that gift is an absolute MUST for anyone involved in this ministry.

If you think everyone who says he's been empowered by the Holy Spirit should be engaged in such activity, that your belief.

It is not an either/or; rather more of a both/and. Theological training is essential. So is supernatural empowerment.

But IMO every pastor worth his salt should be theologically equipping all of his congregants to the same level he has achieved.
That however is another discussion for another forum.

 

[Albion]

I can agree to one extent or another with what you say here.

That does not answer the question. I asked about supernatural charismatic gifts like healing the sick, prophecy, word of knowledge, etc. Discerning of spirits is in that same list. (1 Cor 12)

I think you're mistaken in applying that passage to this particular issue.

 

[Dave-W]

I think you're mistaken in applying that passage to this particular issue.

How so? Have you ever been even peripherally around this ministry? Known anyone who has?

I have been thrust into it a couple of times. Usually I do not have that gift of discernment, but on those occasions had it for a short while. And I can tell you it is an absolute MUST.

 

[Albion]

How so? Have you ever been even peripherally around this ministry? Known anyone who has?.

I don't intend to argue with you about this. We have different perspectives on the matter is all.

 

[Dave-W]

Having a different perspective on something inconsequential is one thing.
But this is potentially dangerous. (for the person being ministered to) That is why I am adamant about it.

 

[Albion]

Having a different perspective on something inconsequential is one thing.
But this is potentially dangerous. (for the person being ministered to) That is why I am adamant about it.

You're excused, if that's what you mean. I still don't see any benefit in arguing about it. I would add two things in closing, however.

1. You have argued that discernment is a gift, and that this relates to exorcisms, but we were asked a question by a particular person, apparently about a possible course of action he might take himself. You don't know if he IS so gifted. and

2. My point about the church needing to have a part in such a matter is not intended to refer to any particular denomination.

 

[jayem]

I'll never forget a patient I saw on a psychiatry rotation, early in my training. A 20-something man was brought in by EMS. His family said he was demon-possessed. He'd never had any prior mental problems, but for no obvious reason began having episodes of hearing voices, shouting, screaming, and thrashing his arms and kicking his feet as if he were fighting off an attacker. When not talking incoherently, he'd be howling or barking like a dog. The family pastor knew he was seriously possessed and had prayed over him repeatedly. At first, he seemed to quiet down and was less physically combative. But in the last day, he was just lying in bed with his eyes open, not eating or drinking, incontinent of urine, moving very little, and not responding at all. That's when they called EMS. One look at him and it was obvious this man had a severe acute psychotic break, and was now catatonic and dehydrated. And within several hours after some IV fluids and a single injection of Haldol, he rejoined the world. He sat up, began talking and answering questions coherently, and was soon eating, drinking coffee, and walking about the ward. I remember this so clearly because it was the most incredible turn-around I'd ever seen. Demon possession, if not being fabricated, is mental illness. I can't imagine that if demons really existed, they'd be chased off so quickly by a major tranquilizer.

 

[Widlast]

All the training in the world will not make up for a lack of discernment. You cannot "train" a gifting. It is like trying to make a concert pianist of someone who has no musical talent. They can be taught some skills, but they will NEVER be even a mediocre musician.

All the good intentions in the world and self aggrandizement will never make up for lack of knowledge.
Of all the millions who claim to have this, that, or the other "spiritual gift", how many actually do?

 

[Widlast]

I'll never forget a patient I saw on a psychiatry rotation, early in my training. A 20-something man was brought in by EMS. His family said he was demon-possessed. He'd never had any prior mental problems, but for no obvious reason began having episodes of hearing voices, shouting, screaming, and thrashing his arms and kicking his feet as if he were fighting off an attacker. When not talking incoherently, he'd be howling or barking like a dog. The family pastor knew he was seriously possessed and had prayed over him repeatedly. At first, he seemed to quiet down and was less physically combative. But in the last day, he was just lying in bed with his eyes open, not eating or drinking, incontinent of urine, moving very little, and not responding at all. That's when they called EMS. One look at him and it was obvious this man had a severe acute psychotic break, and was now catatonic and dehydrated. And within several hours after some IV fluids and a single injection of Haldol, he rejoined the world. He sat up, began talking and answering questions coherently, and was soon eating, drinking coffee, and walking about the ward. I remember this so clearly because it was the most incredible turn-around I'd ever seen. Demon possession, if not being fabricated, is mental illness. I can't imagine that if demons really existed, they'd be chased off so quickly by a major tranquilizer.

That is why, at least in the Roman Catholic Church, when investigating a possible demonic possession, a medical doctor and psychiatrist are brought in to make ABSOLUTELY SURE that the issue is not physical or emotional in nature.
Only if obvious signs of demonic possession are found and the local Bishop approves is an exorcism performed.

 

[Dave-W]

All the good intentions in the world and self aggrandizement will never make up for lack of knowledge.

I get that. Not only must someone be supernaturally gifted; they must be trained in the use of that gift. Think of Elijah and Elisha.

Too many think they have something and go off half-cocked because they never learned to use their gifting properly and in order.

Of all the millions who claim to have this, that, or the other "spiritual gift", how many actually do?

A viable question, but somewhat devoid of faith.
Most cessationists ask that to "prove" the gifts are no longer in use.

 

[Dave-W]

That is why, at least in the Roman Catholic Church, when investigating a possible demonic possession, a medical doctor and psychiatrist are brought in to make ABSOLUTELY SURE that the issue is not physical or emotional in nature.
Only if obvious signs of demonic possession are found and the local Bishop approves is an exorcism performed.

And NOT ONE WORD about spiritual discernment.

That is why I have a real problem with the RCC saying they are doing exorcisms. This sounds like they are using physical observations to try to determine a spiritual problem. That is like trying to diagnose an engine problem on your car by looking in the trunk.

 

[Widlast]

I get that. Not only must someone be supernaturally gifted; they must be trained in the use of that gift. Think of Elijah and Elisha.

Too many think they have something and go off half-cocked because they never learned to use their gifting properly and in order.


A viable question, but somewhat devoid of faith.
Most cessationists ask that to "prove" the gifts are no longer in use.

I 'm not a cessationist, however I am someone who has seen an immense amount of fraud and nonsense passed off as religion.

 

[Widlast]

And NOT ONE WORD about spiritual discernment.

That is why I have a real problem with the RCC saying they are doing exorcisms. This sounds like they are using physical observations to try to determine a spiritual problem. That is like trying to diagnose an engine problem on your car by looking in the trunk.

Whether or not the individual priest has what you would call "the gift of discernment" or not depends on the individual priest.
There are several ways to determine if a demon is present, such as a strong negative reaction to blessed objects that the subject cannot observe. You obviously are not versed at all in the subject. I would strongly suiggest that you do some research on the matter before making opinions.

 

[Dave-W]

There are several ways to determine if a demon is present, such as a strong negative reaction to blessed objects that the subject cannot observe.

I have seen demons laugh at "blessed objects." Or have no reaction at all. That is not a valid test.

I would strongly suggest that you do some research on the matter before making opinions.

I have done research on it, and that is part of the reason I do not believe the RCC's procedure is valid. Sorry if that upsets your feelings.