Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
It looks from here that either you've changed your position 180 degrees or you don't understand what Tradition is in the Catholic theological sense of the word.These books are excluded because we can look to history and see the early canons rejected them. Tradition is nothing more than the consensus of the early church and council decisions.
Well, the historical record is there to be seen. The Apocrypha was dropped from the Canon during the 16th century...early in the Reformation, that is. It continued to be used in the churches and had value, yes, and this may be part of the confusion. However, those books were not considered to be inspired.It came later. I have read many reformation writings and they quote today's deuterocanonical books as Scripture and do not make any distinction.
I would say the exclusion of those books did not come with reformation, but with the idea that the masoretic text and canon is the right one.
Yes.The authority is God, Scripture is simply a vessel of that authority.
My position hasn't changed, I never embraced the idea of Tradition but tradition with a lower case. Canon law, pontiffs, and other human traditions are rightfully rejected but the idea that Scripture stands on its own is oversimplified. Scripture relies on historic traditions to determine what is included/excluded. The only reason the deuterocanon/apocrypha are excluded in protestant Bibles is because the Jewish canon rejected them so they were not found in the Masoretic texts. It is, essentially, based on the testimony of 1st century jews who rejected Christ.It looks from here that either you've changed your position 180 degrees or you don't understand what Tradition is in the Catholic theological sense of the word.
In either case, this shouldn't be a debate over Tradition vs Sola Scriptura; that certainly was not what I was commenting on in the post that attracted all these contrary views.
Okay. That leaves open some possible issues, but okay.My position hasn't changed, I never embraced the idea of Tradition but tradition with a lower case.
I think I was saying much the same when I commented that, at some point, we have to accept the beliefs of the Church Universal through the ages or else we can just drop the whole thing and substitute a story about golden plates or the utterances of some recent person whose followers consider him or her to be a prophet.Canon law, pontiffs, and other human traditions are rightfully rejected but the idea that Scripture stands on its own is oversimplified.
I think THAT is an oversimplification. But I've already addressed the point.Scripture relies on historic traditions to determine what is included/excluded.
"Early in the reformation" is the 14th century. The 16th century is the late reformation.Well, the historical record is there to be seen. The Apocrypha was dropped from the Canon during the 16th century...early in the Reformation, that is. It continued to be used in the churches and had value, yes, and this may be part of the confusion. However, those books were not considered to be inspired.
That's fair enough, but it enters into more than simply the dictates of the "church universal," which itself requires appeal to tradition(after all, are the Montanists, Donatists, or Arians part of the "church universal" or not? How do we distinguish the church?) God's vested authority isn't just in Scripture, that is simply the most readily distinguishable.I think I was saying much the same when I commented that, at some point, we have to accept the beliefs of the Church Universal through the ages or else we can just drop the whole thing and substitute a story about golden plates or the utterances of some recent person whose followers consider him or her to be a prophet.
I'm going by the normal, historical way of dating the Reformation as opposed to including the various forerunners of the Reformation."Early in the reformation" is the 14th century. The 16th century is the late reformation.
Removed from the list of Bible books.Also, I am not sure what you mean by dropped from canon.
Calvin aside, they were dropped by the Lutheran, Anglican, Anabaptist, and other reformed movements.And even Calvin in his Institutions quote DT books as Scripture, so in his time it was still considered to be so.
This isn't quite accurate, they were included in the books they were simply relegated to appendices. They weren't excluded from Bibles entirely until they had fallen into complete disuse due to their relegation so the cost of printing outweighed the perceived value of inclusion.Calvin aside, they were dropped by the Lutheran, Anglican, Anabaptist, and other reformed movements.
What list? They were in the Bible until "recently".Removed from the list of Bible books.
Luther put them in his Bible translation and they were not dropped by any European reformation movements. These books were slowly loosing authority until removed from the most Bible print in the 19th century. And the 19th century is long after the reformation.Calvin aside, they were dropped by the Lutheran, Anglican, Anabaptist, and other reformed movements.
This isn't quite accurate, they were included in the books they were simply relegated to appendices. They weren't excluded from Bibles entirely until they had fallen into complete disuse due to their relegation so the cost of printing outweighed the perceived value of inclusion.
They may have been under the same cover with the Bible books, although I don't know of any publisher doing that recently, but they were excluded from the Holy Scriptures early in the Reformation because they were not considered to be inspired.What list? They were in the Bible until "recently".
Yes, they were, although I think you are not likely to get that history correct until you give it more study.Luther put them in his Bible translation and they were not dropped by any European reformation movements.
Still, what list are you talking about they were removed from? And when? The reason that some English Bible society thought the print will be cheaper without those books does not seem to be relevant for reformation.They may have been under the same cover with the Bible books, although I don't know of any publisher doing that recently, but they were excluded from the Holy Scriptures early in the Reformation because they were not considered to be inspired.
Maybe you are talking about English/USA (post)reformation, I am talking about European ( France, Switzerland, Holy Roman Empire, Poland...).Yes, they were, although I think you are not likely to get that history correct until you give it more study.
Well, all those groups had a history and adherents, so if tradition is what matters, they should be included. OF course, they have not been, so it's the decision-making of the whole church that settled this, and if we don't give it any importance, what else goes into the trash as well?That's fair enough, but it enters into more than simply the dictates of the "church universal," which itself requires appeal to tradition(after all, are the Montanists, Donatists, or Arians part of the "church universal" or not? How do we distinguish the church?)
The Apocrypha was deemed by the Reformers to not be inspired, hence not part of Holy Scripture. Shortly afterwards, the Roman Catholic Church removed some of these books from their canon as well. This does not mean, in either case, that these writings are of no value, but they aren't considered to be the word of God.Still, what list are you talking about they were removed from?
All the Anglican statements, for example, including the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, make what I'm telling you absolutely and unmistakably clear. And the Lutheran position is very similar--important to read for instruction in certain things, but not to be considered as Holy Scripture.Maybe you are talking about English/USA (post)reformation, I am talking about European.
Seems rather circular to say the "whole church" decided when defining what is meant by "whole church."Well, all those groups had a history and adherents, so if tradition is what matters, they should be included. OF course, they have not been, so it's the decision-making of the whole church that settled this, and if we don't give it any importance, what else goes into the trash as well?
Actually, apocrypha was deemed by the Reformers to be inspired. You can read Calvin's works, works of for example Bohemian reformers. I am not sure about Luther, I have read only two books from him, so maybe.The Apocrypha was deemed by the Reformers to not be inspired, hence not part of Holy Scripture.
I am talking about European (France, Switzerland, Holy Roman Empire, Poland...) reformation. England was always a foreign country to Europe, just some border wars with France. So Anglican statements had no influence. Helvetic confessions, Augsburg confession or Heidelberg catechism were more in use.All the Anglican statements, for example, including the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, make what I'm telling you absolutely and unmistakably clear.
Can you name few outside of Britain/America? Also, is there an equation between canonical and inspired?Calvin might have demurred, I don't recall, but the great majority of Reformation-era Protestant churches considered the Apocrypha not to be inspired, and that's not just the doing of some printer or a recent change.
I'm going by the normal, historical way of dating the Reformation as opposed to including the various forerunners of the Reformation.
Removed from the list of Bible books.
Calvin aside, they were dropped by the Lutheran, Anglican, Anabaptist, and other reformed movements.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?