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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Protestant canon
- Thread starter Montalban
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Not a jumble. Here are the contents from 100ad:
1. We have not, therefore, a multitude of books disagreeing and conflicting with one another; but we have only twenty-two, which contain the record of all time and are justly held to be divine.
4. From the time of Artaxerxes to our own day all the events have been recorded, but the accounts are not worthy of the same confidence that we repose in those which preceded them, because there has not been during this time an exact succession of prophets.
NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Either Josephus is lying or misleading or dumb or telling the truth as he understood it in the apostolic era. The same era that Paul said, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God (Rom. 3:2).
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Just there.
Jn. 10:22-23 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
Hey, for all we know He might join some groups at Easter
Paul quotes a Cretan poet, but no one makes the mistake of thinking what the poet said was God-breathed.
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Epimenides?
Well he actually says "All Cretans are liars" so there's a clear distinction that what he's citing isn't inspired.
There's no such one to help you. At least none you've posted.
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Josephus the non-Christian?
You mean that they had been. Not that they currently were when Paul was writing.
Past tense. And this doesn't help you again, because you were arguing that for a while they were Oracle-free!
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SummaScriptura
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Precisely, how is a quote from 30 years after the destruction of 2nd-Temple Judaism, and some time after the death of the last of the Apostles, "from Jesus' time"?
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Ortho_Cat
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No offense, but I would not be willing to accept the testimony of one man as sufficient for what the canon of scripture is or should be, especially when that person could have very well been an enemy of the faith. As we all know, the deutero's mention the resurrection and other christian themes not found in the rest of the OT, and were often used by Christians to illustrate their doctrines.
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Josephus just doesn't get the recognition he deserves. 2,000 years of church-men have missed this!
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How old was Josephus when he penned AA? C100? John died when c95? Straining gnats?
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C'mon folks.
Gamaliel, Paul, Josephus, Melito, Jerome.
And of course IMO the delineation by Jesus of the OT (Abel to Zacharias) and NT (first and last apostles to die). Incidentally, to clarify a bit about prophets, it's like apostles, not all the NT was written by an apostle, but all of the NT was writtten during the time of apostles. Likewise, all of the OT scripture per se was written by prophets or during the time of genuine prophets.
Lastely, even Maccabees says it was written during the time when there were no genuine prophets.
Obviously, the distinction is made by many, whether certain groups (LDS, RC, EO, OO) accept the distinction or not. Those that do not also include their own writings, traditions, councils as equal to God-breathed scripture.
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SummaScriptura
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SU, you are trying to extract a doctrine of canonization from the Bible by using one verse of Christ which is ambiguous in its meaning.
That is bad hermeneutics. You need at least two unequivocal witnesses in order to make this a teachable doctrine. You cannot take an isolated verse of the Bible and base a doctrine on it.
Since there is no doctrine of canonization in the Bible, you are left with proving your case from history and/or tradition. As we have seen the tradition is somewhat mixed but not alot, with almost all early Church traditions having a more expansive O.T. than the one canonized by a reconstructed Judaism after the age of the Apostles.
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SummaScriptura
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Let me put this baby to rest...
Read the following two verses from the Bible which describe spiritual conditions in the land of Israel between the years 175 BC -135 BC.
"Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them." (1 Maccabees 9:27 ESV)
"And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41 ESV)
As we have seen, there had been previous times of waxing and waning of the gift of prophecy among the Jews. At no time did there develope a doctrine among the Jews that the time of the prophets was once-for-all over. Instead, as always, a dearth of the prophetic was understood by Jews as a temporary state of affairs.
By the time of the New Testament, at the time of the birth of Christ, we have two people known to be prophets, Anna and Simeon in the Jerusalem temple prophesying over Christ. Though these prophecies were indeed auspicious, there is no hint that they were ending some sort of centuries-long lack of the prophetic in the land of Israel.
A good case has also been made for the prophetic words/acts of John the Baptist in his mother's womb, his mother, Elizabeth and Mary.
Addtionally, though we as Christians would not view the Jewish chief priest's prophecies as legitimate, nevertheless, the mere fact the Jewish chief priests were operating in the role of the prophetic demonstrates that there was no doctrine among the Jews at the time that the prophetic in Israel had ended some centuries before.
The last word.
~ el fin ~
Read the following two verses from the Bible which describe spiritual conditions in the land of Israel between the years 175 BC -135 BC.
"Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them." (1 Maccabees 9:27 ESV)
"And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41 ESV)
As we have seen, there had been previous times of waxing and waning of the gift of prophecy among the Jews. At no time did there develope a doctrine among the Jews that the time of the prophets was once-for-all over. Instead, as always, a dearth of the prophetic was understood by Jews as a temporary state of affairs.
By the time of the New Testament, at the time of the birth of Christ, we have two people known to be prophets, Anna and Simeon in the Jerusalem temple prophesying over Christ. Though these prophecies were indeed auspicious, there is no hint that they were ending some sort of centuries-long lack of the prophetic in the land of Israel.
A good case has also been made for the prophetic words/acts of John the Baptist in his mother's womb, his mother, Elizabeth and Mary.
Addtionally, though we as Christians would not view the Jewish chief priest's prophecies as legitimate, nevertheless, the mere fact the Jewish chief priests were operating in the role of the prophetic demonstrates that there was no doctrine among the Jews at the time that the prophetic in Israel had ended some centuries before.
The last word.
~ el fin ~
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Standing Up
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You mean like the east gate was shut (Ezekiel), therefore Mary was a virgin forever?
Here's the two witnesses:
Mt. 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Lk. 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
who refer from:
Gen. 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
to:
2 Chron. 24:22 Thus Joash the king remembered not the kindness which Jehoiada his father had done to him, but slew his son. And when he died, he said, The LORD look upon [it], and require [it].
Abel to Zacharias (first and last prophetic blood). James to John (first and last apostolic blood).
We are built on that foundation of OT prophet and NT apostle.
I've yet to see anything from 300bc to 200ad that speaks other than what Maccabees, Gamaliel (inferred), Paul (inferred), Peter (Spirit moved prophetically) Josephus, Melito (identical except the oversight of Esther), Jerome, maybe Origen, said about what was and was not scripture. Yes, there were "canons", "assembled books", but the distinction was clear between what was considered God-breathed and not.
All I've seen is Augustine c400 pushing the deteros.
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sensational
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Sorry if i am lazy and havent seen any responses but has anyone responded to these points?
In Christ,
JMS
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SummaScriptura
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Yeah. No response to this yet.
This is a pretty good run-down of the tenuousness of the argument.
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