Protestant canon

[Thekla]

Yes,

That's the point too. Jesus quotes Malachi, jumps over 400 years of history, and ties the valid prophecy to John the baptist.

Jesus goes to the Temple at Hanukkah.

(I think Montalban listed Deuterocanonical citations in the NT, incl. Gospels. Like Jewish oral tradition - ex. the two greatest commandments, mercy and judgment, divorce - unfamiliarity can lead us to assume absence.)

 

[SummaScriptura]

Its a red herring. Jesus did not say the prophet Zech, just Zech.

Maybe not... how about we look @ context?:
[47] Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
[48] Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
[49] Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
[50] That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
[51] From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
[52] Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
[53] And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:
[54] Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

I'm gettin' 'prophet' for some reason.

So, you see Abel as a prophet?

Well, do you?

 

[Thekla]

Well, do you?

To add: the broader Jewish use of the term prophet means someone who is close to God ... (per this def., it seems Abel would be a prophet).

 

[Erose]

From Kevin Edgecomb's translation:

Vulgate Prologues



I see this as shoddy.

You are free to be of the opinion that that was normal and a good way to go about it. Fine.

After comparing his translation with the text of the book, I do not see how anyone can come away with the opinion that is the way Biblical books should be translated. Jerome's version makes the premise of the book laughable: bird dung in yer eyes can make you blind.

Look here is one fact that neither you or I cannot prove is whether translated the book of Tobit well or not for we do not possess the manuscript he and his Jewish buddy translated. If we did then one can make that observation. But right all we and bible scholars can do is speculate.

So we are arguing over something that neither of us can learn until we ask Jerome himself when we get to heaven.

One thing I take assurance in is the fact that Jerome did not translate the scriptures in a vacuum. I believe and have faith that the fathers of the church during and after his would have raised an uproar if Jerome's translation was shoddy. As particular as the nicene fathers were about what was taught I believe at a drop of a hat they would have been calling Jerome a heretic and burning his translation.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Added to the manifold problems with the 'vaild line of prophets' allegation (SU accepts this on scant evidence and rejects AS with it's significant evidence) is the persons of Anna and Simeon. Where do they fit in this scheme?

 

[Erose]

Can we just go ahead and come to the conclusion that Protestants cannot answer the OP's question?

 

[Rick Otto]

So, you see Abel as a prophet?

Apparently Jesus does:
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
[51] From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias ,...
Here's a kind of lengthy sermon on it, but it is easy to skim to get the drift & highlights:
The Spurgeon Underground: The Prophet Abel

 

[SummaScriptura]

Added to the manifold problems with the 'vaild line of prophets' allegation (SU accepts this on scant evidence and rejects AS with it's significant evidence) is the persons of Anna and Simeon. Where do they fit in this scheme?

Not only that, even though there was mention during the intertestemental period of a dearth of prophets, no doctrine was articulated at that time, that the Jews should not expect this situation to change. Lo and behold when we get to the New Testament we have Anna and Simeon, we have the Jewish high priest who prophesies yearly without anyone saying, "wait! I thought the time of the prophets came to an end?". Then the Church has many instances of prophets, prophetesses and prophecy, yet no one comments that this put to an end of a lack of such.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Macc says nothing (that I'm aware of ) about its language; not the point. The point is it says it was written in the time when there were no prophets, unlike scripture (law, prophets, writings). Macc 9:27, 14:41.

I'm not talking about just Macc here. Many of the deutero's are discounted because they were supposedly originally written in Greek. I am saying that the original language does not necessarily imply canonicity or vice versa.

Macc is not a prophetic book, afaik. Are you asserting that all of the jewish OT was written by prophets or associated with prophets?

 

[Montalban]

I'm not talking about just Macc here. Many of the deutero's are discounted because they were supposedly originally written in Greek. I am saying that the original language does not necessarily imply canonicity or vice versa.

Macc is not a prophetic book, afaik. Are you asserting that all of the jewish OT was written by prophets or associated with prophets?

It's a very tortured theory.

It's based on making statements about Melito, that don't work because he had a different canon.

Then one must accept Josephus as a religious authority, because one must - even though he lived after Jesus, and rejected Jesus.

Then we must accept some theory of books not by prophets being non-inspired. Where this rule comes in, I've still yet to see.

Then we have that Jesus didn't quote from certain books. He didn't quote from Ruth either, but again this rule then goes out the window.

We have claims that there are no prophecies in these books, which isn't true.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Not only that, even though there was mention during the intertestemental period of a dearth of prophets, no doctrine was articulated at that time, that the Jews should not expect this situation to change. Lo and behold when we get to the New Testament we have Anna and Simeon, we have the Jewish high priest who prophesies yearly without anyone saying, "wait! I thought the time of the prophets came to an end?". Then the Church has many instances of prophets, prophetesses and prophecy, yet no one comments that this put to an end of a lack of such.

Elizabeth and baby John, upon hearing Mary, prophesied:

"In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy."

Mary the mother of Jesus also prophesied:

"My soul doth magnify the Lord.

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid;
for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me;
and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation unto generations,
to them that fear him.
He hath showed might in his arm:
he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat,
and hath exalted the humble.
He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away."

I wonder if they were aware that there was no longer a valid line of OT priests to validate their prophecy?

 

[SummaScriptura]

Whether you accept them as inspired or not, the following are the books which, though lacking universal acceptance, have nevertheless been important in the spiritual life of the Church.

Even if these do not seem inspired to you, you may yet find something of value within them. Even Martin Luther said of the books of the shorter deuterocanon below, were of value to the Church and should be read.

Bon appetit!

Books of the Shorter Deuterocanon
(Accepted in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy)
Tobit
Judith
8 chapters of Esther
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
The Wisdom of Solomon
The Wisdom of ben Sirach
Baruch
The Letter of Jeremiah
3 chapters of Daniel
+ 8 books
+ 2 books with additional chapters

Books of the Broader Deuterocanon
(Accepted in one or more branch of Orthodoxy)
The Book of Enoch
The Book of Jubilees
The Prayer of Manasseh
1 Esdras
2 Esdras (The Ezra Apocalypse)
3 Maccabees
Psalm 151
Psalms 152-155
The Martyrdom of Isaiah
The Rest of the Words of Baruch
The Apocalypse of Baruch
+ 9 books
+ 1 book with additional chapters

Books with Limited Acceptance in Historic Times:
The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
Joseph and Asenath
The Lives of the Prophets
The Psalms of Solomon
+ 4 books

Books placed in a Biblical Appendix:
4 Maccabees
+ 1 book

 

[SummaScriptura]

Elizabeth and baby John, upon hearing Mary, prophesied:

"In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy."

Mary the mother of Jesus also prophesied:

"My soul doth magnify the Lord.

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid;
for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me;
and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation unto generations,
to them that fear him.
He hath showed might in his arm:
he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat,
and hath exalted the humble.
He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away."

I wonder if they were aware that there was no longer a valid line of OT priests to validate their prophecy?

Cool.

For the record, here's the references upon which so many assumptions have been based:

"Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them." (1 Maccabees 9:27 ESV)

"And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise." (1 Maccabees 14:41 ESV)

By the time of the New Testament, this situation seems to have changed, and prophecy seems to have been renewed and somewhat normalized.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Also, if being written by an OT prophet is the litmus test for canonicity, then why isn't the book of Enoch in the Protestant canon? It is in fact referred to and quoted directly in the NT as prophecy as well:

The book is referred to, and quoted, in Jude 14-15:
"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these [men], saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Compare this with Enoch 1:9, translated from the Ethiopic (found also in Qumran scroll 4Q204=4QEnochc ar, col I 16-18[12]

"And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." Book of Enoch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that the author of Jude recognizes Enoch as a prophet, and these to be his words. So why no Enoch in the canon?

 

[SummaScriptura]

1 Samuel 3:1, describes a very similar dearth of prophecy. I doubt either Eli or Samuel were likely to have foreseen that within just a few years there would be dozens of prophets!

"Now the young man Samuel was ministering to the LORD under Eli. And the word of the LORD was rare in those days; there was no frequent vision." (1 Sam 3:1 ESV)

"1David and the chiefs of the service also set apart for the service the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who prophesied with lyres, with harps, and with cymbals. The list of those who did the work and of their duties was: 2Of the sons of Asaph: Zaccur, Joseph, Nethaniah, and Asharelah, sons of Asaph, under the direction of Asaph, who prophesied under the direction of the king. 3Of Jeduthun, the sons of Jeduthun: Gedaliah, Zeri, Jeshaiah, Shimei, Hashabiah, and Mattithiah, six, under the direction of their father Jeduthun, who prophesied with the lyre in thanksgiving and praise to the LORD. 4Of Heman, the sons of Heman: Bukkiah, Mattaniah, Uzziel, Shebuel and Jerimoth, Hananiah, Hanani, Eliathah, Giddalti, and Romamti-ezer, Joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir, Mahazioth. 5All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer, according to the promise of God to exalt him, for God had given Heman fourteen sons and three daughters. 6They were all under the direction of their father in the music in the house of the LORD with cymbals, harps, and lyres for the service of the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman were under the order of the king. 7The number of them along with their brothers, who were trained in singing to the LORD, all who were skillful, was 288. 8And they cast lots for their duties, small and great, teacher and pupil alike." (1 Chron. 25:1-8 ESV)

 

[Ortho_Cat]

1 Samuel 3:1, describes a very similar dearth of prophecy. I doubt either Eli or Samuel were likely to have foreseen that within just a few years there would be dozens of prophets!

"Now the young man Samuel was ministering to the LORD under Eli. And the word of the LORD was rare in those days; there was no frequent vision." (1 Sam 3:1 ESV)

"1David and the chiefs of the service also set apart for the service the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who prophesied with lyres, with harps, and with cymbals. The list of those who did the work and of their duties was: 2Of the sons of Asaph: Zaccur, Joseph, Nethaniah, and Asharelah, sons of Asaph, under the direction of Asaph, who prophesied under the direction of the king. 3Of Jeduthun, the sons of Jeduthun: Gedaliah, Zeri, Jeshaiah, Shimei, Hashabiah, and Mattithiah, six, under the direction of their father Jeduthun, who prophesied with the lyre in thanksgiving and praise to the LORD. 4Of Heman, the sons of Heman: Bukkiah, Mattaniah, Uzziel, Shebuel and Jerimoth, Hananiah, Hanani, Eliathah, Giddalti, and Romamti-ezer, Joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir, Mahazioth. 5All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer, according to the promise of God to exalt him, for God had given Heman fourteen sons and three daughters. 6They were all under the direction of their father in the music in the house of the LORD with cymbals, harps, and lyres for the service of the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman were under the order of the king. 7The number of them along with their brothers, who were trained in singing to the LORD, all who were skillful, was 288. 8And they cast lots for their duties, small and great, teacher and pupil alike." (1 Chron. 25:1-8 ESV)

"...who prophesied with lyres, with harps, and with cymbals."

Now I would like to have witnessed this...

 

[SummaScriptura]

"...who prophesied with lyres, with harps, and with cymbals."

Now I would like to have witnessed this...

come to my church next Sunday...

 

[Montalban]

Also, if being written by an OT prophet is the litmus test for canonicity, then why isn't the book of Enoch in the Protestant canon? It is in fact referred to and quoted directly in the NT as prophecy as well:

The book is referred to, and quoted, in Jude 14-15:
"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these [men], saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Compare this with Enoch 1:9, translated from the Ethiopic (found also in Qumran scroll 4Q204=4QEnochc ar, col I 16-18[12]

"And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." Book of Enoch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that the author of Jude recognizes Enoch as a prophet, and these to be his words. So why no Enoch in the canon?

It's just another twist in a tortured test for the canon

 

[Montalban]

come to my church next Sunday...

Qantas flight, for me

 

[Ortho_Cat]

come to my church next Sunday...

we can do a one-for-one...