Proselytizing in the US of A

[katautumn]

A friend at my knitting meet-up made an interesting point this past week and I wanted to give it a mention here and see if I could get some clarification. In church we used to hear a lot about "the great commission", about Jesus telling people to go out and be fishers of men. This was, in theory, a means to motivate us to go out and do some "soul-winning" (I put that term in quotes because I find it a relatively disdainful term, as it implies the person handing out tracts is somehow responsible for someone's salvation). Anyway, back during that time, Christianity was non-existent. Obviously in those times there would have, in theory, been good reason for people to go out and share the "good news".

In modern-day America (not trying to leave out our International friends, here. It's just that I am not familiar with the extent of random acts of evangelism in other countries) is it even necessary to proselytize? Taking into consideration that just about everyone who is of relatively normal mental capacity has, at some point from the time of childhood, heard tales of Jesus and the God of the Christian Bible, the fact that Bibles can be purchased in just about any major retail outfit, the wealth of information online, churches on every corner and religious television and radio stations how would one need to be told by someone in the flesh about the Gospel?

You hear often from Christians how certain "agendas" are being "crammed down everyone's throats". Is proselytizing not cramming the Christian agenda down people's throats? When people now have access and knowledge to all that salvation entails without ever having to have a face-to-face encounter with a believer and they can choose to accept or deny Christianity, why do so many Christians continue to insist upon thrusting their beliefs on the general populace?

Has proselytizing simply become a way for "doubting Thomases" of the Christian faith to validate their beliefs, because they can actually witness a real-life conversion right before their very eyes?

 

[HannahBanana]

I completely agree. Proselytizing has become a "feel-good exercise" for Christians. Nine times out of ten, the person who's being proselytized to won't end up converting, so it really seems like proselytizing is essentially pointless. I wonder why Christians can't focus their energy on something more worthwhile, like feeding the hungry or building houses for the homeless.

 

[katautumn]

I wonder why Christians can't focus their energy on something more worthwhile, like feeding the hungry or building houses for the homeless.

Because that requires putting forth an effort and fails to provide that "stamp of approval" they desperately seek. In addition to proselytizing, I've noticed that there are some Christians who go above and beyond simply sharing the Gospel. They try to become the moral watchdogs over others who do not adhere to their beliefs. I was reading a discussion on another forum and the discussion turned to how important it is to either burn or deface books deemed "immoral" or "heretical" in nature so that no one else can read them and "be deceived". If these Christians are rock solid in their faith and the fact that everyone is born with an inherent love and knowledge of their God, why do they fear these materials? How would they feel if I defaced Bibles the way the deface the Book of Mormon or Harry Potter?

 

[HannahBanana]

I was reading a discussion on another forum and the discussion turned to how important it is to either burn or deface books deemed "immoral" or "heretical" in nature so that no one else can read them and "be deceived". If these Christians are rock solid in their faith and the fact that everyone is born with an inherent love and knowledge of their God, why do they fear these materials? How would they feel if I defaced Bibles the way the deface the Book of Mormon or Harry Potter?

It's interesting that you bring this up because I just encountered this sort of behavior from a so-called Christian on here. He was saying that he advocates urinating on the Qu'ran, and everything that you just said flashed through my mind after I read that post of his. It's just mind-boggling how contradictory, hateful, and bitter some Christians can be, and I agree that that behavior stems from fear. You know, the odd thing is that, back when I was a Christian, other Christians would tell me to deal with my anxiety disorder by handing over all of my fears to God, yet here's perfect proof that very few Christians can actually do that. I mean, if it were as easy as "handing it over to God," then Christians would be much less hateful, since they wouldn't have any irrational fears that they could turn into hatred. So I wonder why so many Christians told me to hand my fears over to God, then. Did they just not realize that doing so is darned near impossible? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way. You don't need to answer it unless you really want to.)

 

[WatersMoon110]

Personally, I think that people who are not very strong in their faith try to push it on others, almost in an attempt to prove to themselves that it is the "right faith".

People who are strong in their faith don't need to hand out pamphlets. In my experience, other are drawn to them naturally, to learn about their beliefs (if that is their desire).

I think that Christianity is far more about learning how to be a good person, rather than trying to force other people to be good people. But, you know, trying to be a good person is hard, and talk is cheap.

 

[Bombila]

Ditto what WatersMoon says. I personally know some Christians whom I greatly admire for their habit of quietly and cheerfully acting on their beliefs. These are people who do real good in the community, are kind and respectful to everyone they meet regardless of status or faith, and are serene in their own lives. If I was at all inclined to convert, these are the people who would lead me, not someone handing me tracts or preaching at me.

 

[Isambard]

I agree entirely with the OP (and everyone else in this thread).

There's a reason why I avoid the strange man living in the alley trying to warn me about the martians living in my collen. Just because the warning is from a strange woman and the warning involves some invisible man being mad at me, isn't going to make that person any more pleasant to listen to.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Yes.

Wanna know why? Because ideas like this exist. Christianity has become perverted. By anti-Christians, by elitist Christians, by Christians who don't bother to learn anything. What Christianity is has been shrouded and enveloped by all these false ideas of hate. Most people don't hear Christian and think "someone who follows Christ". They think "self-righteous hateful person who uses religion to try to be authoritative".

I believe we do still need to be. Louder. Christians who are Christian for the right reasons need to take up their cross and drown out all the false preachers and the hate-mongerers and all the things that have given Christianity it's bad reputation.

 

[katautumn]

Most people don't hear Christian and think "someone who follows Christ". They think "self-righteous hateful person who uses religion to try to be authoritative".

But most outspoken, modern-day Christians have a huge stumbling block in their path to sharing the good news- it's called the internet. It is a tremendous rarity to find a professed Christian who participates in online discussions that does not come across as self-righteous, hateful and using their religion to try and be authoritative. Is it any wonder non-christians have these perceptions and stereotypes? While we're out trying to live our lives, we see news reports about goofs boycotting a franchised coffee shop because their logo shows a "naked mermaid". You go lurk on nine out of ten Christian-based forums online and they are breeding grounds for bigotry and condemnation for others. Granted, most Christian-based sites are less welcoming of non-christian participants. Some state , right up in front, in their ToS that only those who adhere to a strict set of beliefs are allowed to join and participate. First hint that you deviate, in any way, from the rules and you are perma-banned. Those sites are a hornet's nest, filled with messages talking about how Pagans make them sick and how we should be executed, how Barrack Obama is surely the antichrist, how gays and lesbians are "filthy sodomites". Is it any wonder it leaves a bad taste in our mouths?

And then we run into a co-worker, relative or acquaintance (whom we already know beyond a shadow of a doubt is a Bible-reading, every Sunday church-going, heaven-bound Christian) who pesters you every Monday morning about how you "missed a blessing" by not attending their church the day before, how empty and meaningless your life must be due to the fact that you don't follow their Jesus.

I'll share a personal story. My friends were at a knitting meet-up at a local coffee house a few weeks ago (I was not able to attend that night) and a man came in with a large television set and DVD player. He set up at the table next to theirs' and a handful other people came and joined him. He started playing a DVD about salvation. When the ladies in my knitting group tried to carry on their conversation, he would crank up the volume on the TV set and at one point turned it so that it was directly facing them. After some time, he approached their table and said, "Excuse me, ladies? I'm very concerned about your eternal souls and I would like to lead you all in the sinner's prayer." It was so rude and so condescending. A lady in my group told him that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. He left in a huff.

It just goes to show you that if the intent is to show that Christians are not all self-righteous then they should stop assuming everyone wants unsolicited spiritual advice. In Western culture, everyone knows who Jesus is and what Christianity is. Nobody needs to be approached by a stranger boldly proclaiming that "Jesus is the only way!"

 

[FaithLikeARock]

But you don't. Believe it or not there's more to Christianity than just that. No one in the Bible simply heard about Jesus and believed. They were called by him. If they weren't called then they heard testimony about others who were called and then they went and were called. Most people go "oh Jesus died for you" and then brush it off like an afterthought. That's the entire purpose. It's the key. It's the reason Christianity exists and no emphasis is put on it at all. It isn't about being Christian. I could care less if you're Christian. Calling it like that turns it into a religion and Christianity isn't supposed to be a religion. It isn't supposed to be a bunch of rituals and rules. God doesn't want us to follow rules because we have too. I don't follow rules because I have to. I do it to honor God. You think He cares? If God really wanted us to just be a bunch of zombies he'd take away our free will. But no. He doesn't care. He doesn't require, He just desires.

I want to share something with the world. Don't let anyone tell you that God is all about rules and that good people are this or that. God only does what any good parent would do. He gives us rules but He doesn't force us. We realize our own consequences. He doesn't want to punish us but at the same time He doesn't want to spoil us. No parent lets their child misbehave constantly. If they do they're not a good parent. But overall, God just wants us to love Him. That's the reason He gave us free will. Because he didn't want us to automatically love Him with no emotion or reason, just because that's how we're programmed. He actually wants us to love Him because we love Him. People forget that. They replace God's love, they replace God's grace, they replace God with rules, and regulations and God just turns into this threat. But that isn't what it's about.

Jesus is the only way. Now Christians need to learn how to actually teach that because just saying it isn't enough.

 

[katautumn]

Jesus is the only way.

You can't learn how to properly teach this because it cannot be proven. Until someone can prove that Jesus is the only way and that this is a universal truth, Christians will continue to be viewed in the light of self-righteousness by outsiders who have already heard countless times over that they are wrong and Christians are right.

Let's reverse this a minute. I've heard stories of Christian parents praising their small children for telling their playmates that without Jesus, they will burn in hell. How would the Christians here feel if my son told your children that Wicca is the only way and gave them information on Wiccan rites and rituals? Would you show up at my door with a Gospel tract? Would you post a rant against me on a Christian-based message forum? Would you confront me in anger? Would you tell your children that my child is a liar and deceived by satan?

 

[HannahBanana]

Calling it like that turns it into a religion and Christianity isn't supposed to be a religion. It isn't supposed to be a bunch of rituals and rules.

This mindset seriously frustrates me. Christianity is, by definition, a religion. Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary (http://www.m-w.com) defines "religion" as:

the service and worship of God or the supernatural

If that definition doesn't fit Christianity, then I must be seriously confused as to what Christianity is all about.

Also, if Christianity isn't supposed to be "a bunch of rituals and rules" then why does it include so many rituals and rules? Going to church is a ritual, as is praying, and as is celebrating the Christian holidays. And the Bible is full of rules: don't envy, love your neighbor, don't worship other gods...I could go on and on, but I won't.

I just don't see how you can, in all honesty, tell me that Christianity isn't a religion when that's quite obviously what it is.

 

[stan1980]

Wait, lets back up a bit here... you go to knitting meet-ups?!?

 

[Steezie]

I think there are a great many Christians who preach with a greater intention to make themselves feel or look better to their brethren. They have very un-realistic expectations of what they say and what they can do and somethings it borders on the insulting.

One thing that A LOT of Christians who attempt to convert others need to understand is that there is a time and a place for everything and if you catch someone who may not be in the mood to talk about religion, you aren't going to get anywhere and are actually making your task harder. Being persistent also is not going to do you any favors and if you REALLY get dogged, you might end up flat on your back for your trouble.

Some need to learn the meaning of the words "personal space" and how NOT to violate it with others. This last Mothers Day I was leaving a store and granted I didnt look too nice, a pretty raggedy shirt with faded jeans, sandals, and messy hair. What made it REALLY bad was I have small burns on the inside crook of my elbow from slag (its been far too hot to wear full leathers when I weld lately so as a consequence I get burned a little more than usual). If you really stop to look at them, you can see they are burns, but to someone who is used to seeing marks there and thinking "track marks" they can look a lot like needle marks. There was a guy who was preaching outside the store and he saw me and basically stepped right in front of me asking if I knew Jesus. I told him I wasnt interested, side-stepped him, and walked on towards my car. He made a remark about how drugs werent the answer and then proceeded to try and talk OVER me when I tried to explain they were not needle marks. I got fed up and headed off towards my car and the guy FOLLOWED me across half the parking lot talking about Jesus and how he would wash my slate clean. I told him that if he didnt leave me alone, the only washing that would happen was his clothes after I whacked him in the nose for not leaving me alone when I had asked him six or seven times to do so.

People like that and a good number of people HERE are actually do more to drive people AWAY from Christianity than they do to draw people in. They behave in ways that put Non-Christians off and make them retreat further.

 

[Verv]

Proselytizing ought to be a more subtle art these days as most Americans have heard of Christ yet knowingly turn their backs on Him.

What would be best would be to simply put out all of Christ's true teachings as opposed to the supposed teachings. Many atheists and even some Christians here really do not have strong grasp on the philosophies of Jesus Christ -- this is partly why I am here and what have you.

Proselytizing in the West is the art of setting the record straight whereas in other places it is general education concerning Christ.

 

[quatona]

I find it amazing when people try to proselytize me with (usually with one of those standard scripts I know by heart) as though they would seriously expect me to go "Wow! I have never heard that before! There´s a god? There´s a hell? Why didn´t anybody tell me in the previous 50 years? Is that a recent discovery, or what? Did they get the Nobel Price for it?"

 

[Isambard]

I find it amazing when people try to proselytize me with (usually with one of those standard scripts I know by heart) as though they would seriously expect me to go "Wow! I have never heard that before! There´s a god? There´s a hell? Why didn´t anybody tell me in the previous 50 years? Is that a recent discovery, or what? Did they get the Nobel Price for it?"

You just gave me a real evil idea

 

[FaithLikeARock]

You can't learn how to properly teach this because it cannot be proven. Until someone can prove that Jesus is the only way and that this is a universal truth, Christians will continue to be viewed in the light of self-righteousness by outsiders who have already heard countless times over that they are wrong and Christians are right.

Let's reverse this a minute. I've heard stories of Christian parents praising their small children for telling their playmates that without Jesus, they will burn in hell. How would the Christians here feel if my son told your children that Wicca is the only way and gave them information on Wiccan rites and rituals? Would you show up at my door with a Gospel tract? Would you post a rant against me on a Christian-based message forum? Would you confront me in anger? Would you tell your children that my child is a liar and deceived by satan?

If it were about proof it would be easy. But no. It's about faith. I've never seen another religion with the exception of I believe Humanitarianism, that looks at all the religions in the world and goes "Well you're right in your own sense". Everyone else in the world views only their beliefs as right. Even atheists. Except that Christians are actually called to share it, and that's the big difference. Because we believe there's a great happiness when life is done and over. Most people threaten with hell but they forget that hell is only half of it. Really, hell isn't as bad as people think. Pain, suffering, I doubt that. Hell isn't about fire and brimstone. The point of hell is absolute separation from God.

I've never met a young child that was Wiccan. Wiccan seems a bit more complicated than a young child could understand. That I said, I had friends who did that to me in grammar school so I doubt I would really care if the same thing happened to be child. Personally, I don't think it's the parents job to tell their kids about religion, because if they're raised into it, they'll follow it exactly the way God doesn't want - because mommy and daddy says so. There's no relationship, there's no faith, it's just empty belief. Children should be raised neutral until they're old enough to listen and decide for themselves. If parents did this, they'd see if they're following God right and all those extremists who raise extremists children would raise children in their hateful environment and the child would go "Oh well that's not really a nice religion."

I'm probably the wrong person to be interrogating about this. Like I said, I think that people are right to choose. It's God's will. We're not supposed to be forcing people, threatening people, and doing "soul-winning". We were called to share the Good News, as passionately and truthfully as possible.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

This mindset seriously frustrates me. Christianity is, by definition, a religion. Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary (http://www.m-w.com) defines "religion" as:



If that definition doesn't fit Christianity, then I must be seriously confused as to what Christianity is all about.

Also, if Christianity isn't supposed to be "a bunch of rituals and rules" then why does it include so many rituals and rules? Going to church is a ritual, as is praying, and as is celebrating the Christian holidays. And the Bible is full of rules: don't envy, love your neighbor, don't worship other gods...I could go on and on, but I won't.

I just don't see how you can, in all honesty, tell me that Christianity isn't a religion when that's quite obviously what it is.

That's if you follow what's become the typical definition. By your definition, atheism is a religion too but I've yet to find an atheist who will out and admit it. So I tell them they can have their non-religion if I can call Christianity a relationship. From the outside it's a religion. From the inside it's not. If it were, it would be horribly boring and I'd be a Buddhist already.

A lot of people look at the Old Testament and go "well it still applies" even though the Pauline epistles are fairly clear that you don't have to follow OT law. There is a new law they're asked to follow but not required because, like I said, God let's us experience the consequences ourselves. We don't have to go to church. We don't have to pray (and technically if we do we're supposed to do it non-stop. Praying is about connection with God). We also don't have to celebrate "Christian" holidays. In fact many people don't. I celebrate Easter. And then I also celebrate Christmas, Winter Solstice and every other Winter holiday because I don't believe the birth of Christ requires a great celebration.

 

[Meshavrischika]

a friend of mine once called witnessing "a religious pick up line" which I think is appropriate in most cases.

I think the majority of the time it is something just done out of obligation, in which case, it's useless. I think you might actually have a point in some cases on the validation of one's belief... maybe some are trying to justify themselves.