Propitiation

[HIM]

Not just as a sacrifice for sins, but as perfect obedience to His heavenly Father, with which He clothes His people, pictured in Isaiah as a robe:

“I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks [himself] with ornaments, And as a bride adorns [herself] with her jewels.” (Isa 61:10 NKJV)

Possibly Paul was referring to that verse when he wrote:

“and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;” (Php 3:9 NKJV)

Once again, that is a Bad translation of Phil 3:9. The biggest issue with it is the word in. It is not faith in Christ. It is the faith of Christ. Take note in the beginning of verse 9 it says to be found in Him. What does that mean. Read Gal 2:20 as you ponder.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Remember Chapter 2 in Ephesians just got done saying it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Jesus said similar words about Himself in John 14 when he said "HE doeth the work"

This is key in understanding these text in chapter 3.

Here is the Greek.

Phil 3:9 καὶ And
εὑρεθῶ Be Found
ἐν In αὐτῷ Him,
μὴ Not
ἔχων Having
ἐμὴν δικαιοσύνην My Righteousness
τὴν the
ἐκ OUT Of
νόμου Law,
ἀλλὰ But
τὴν The
διὰ though
πίστεως of Faith
Χριστοῦ Of Christ '
τὴν The
ἐκ out Of θεοῦ God
δικαιοσύνην Righteousness
ἐπὶ On
τῇ the
πίστει Faith,

 

[David Lamb]

Once again, that is a Bad translation of Phil 3:9. The biggest issue with it is the word in. It is not faith in Christ. It is the faith of Christ. Take note in the beginning of verse 9 it says to be found in Him. What does that mean. Read Gal 2:20 as you ponder.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Remember Chapter 2 in Ephesians just got done saying it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Jesus said similar words about Himself in John 14 when he said "HE doeth the work"

This is key in understanding these text in chapter 3.

Here is the Greek.

Phil 3:9 καὶ And
εὑρεθῶ Be Found
ἐν In αὐτῷ Him,
μὴ Not
ἔχων Having
ἐμὴν δικαιοσύνην My Righteousness
τὴν the
ἐκ OUT Of
νόμου Law,
ἀλλὰ But
τὴν The
διὰ though
πίστεως of Faith
Χριστοῦ Of Christ '
τὴν The
ἐκ out Of θεοῦ God
δικαιοσύνην Righteousness
ἐπὶ On
τῇ the
πίστει Faith,

Yes, I read your earlier post about it meaning the faith of Christ. However, that does not make a difference (as far as I can see) to the point I was making, that Paul said he didn't have his own righteousness; he needed the perfect righteousness provided by God.

 

[zoidar]

Yes, the white garments of Christ's perfect righteousness. Our own righteousness won't suffice, for as Isaiah says, even our righteousnesses are like filthy rags in God's sight.

Yes, but I don't agree Christ perfect obedience is imputed to us, but his perfect obedience makes it possible for him to be a perfect sacrifice that forgives and makes us righteous. Being forgiven = being righteous

 

[David Lamb]

Yes, but I don't agree Christ perfect obedience is imputed to us, but his perfect obedience makes it possible for him to be a perfect sacrifice that forgives and makes us righteous. Being forgiven = being righteous

No, being forgiven does not equal being perfectly righteous. The apostle Paul had to write:

“18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will [to do], I do not do; but the evil I will not [to do], that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not [to do], it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.” (Ro 7:18-21 NKJV)

Yes, he'd been forgiven, but he knew he was still a sinner. This teaching is known as "The Great Exchange." Both Martin Luther and John Calvin believed it. Calvin called it "The Wonderful Exchange". He wrote:

"We cannot be condemned for our sins, from whose guilt he has absolved us, since he willed to take them upon himself as if they were his own. This is the wonderful exchange which, becoming Son of man with us, he has made us sons of God with him; that, by his descent to earth, he has prepared an ascent to heaven for us; that, by taking on our mortality, he has conferred his immortality upon us; that, accepting our weakness, he has strengthened us by his power; that, receiving our poverty unto himself, he has transferred his wealth to us; that, taking the weight of our iniquity upon himself (which oppressed us), he has clothed us with his righteousness."

 

[HIM]

Yes, I read your earlier post about it meaning the faith of Christ. However, that does not make a difference (as far as I can see) to the point I was making, that Paul said he didn't have his own righteousness; he needed the perfect righteousness provided by God.

There is a world of difference. For we are to be dead but alive in Christ and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the FAITH OF the Son of God who gave Himself for us. Which is the whole point of us being found in Him as the text starts out. We are to live through Him through God. For it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

Faith in Christ does not bring that out. And most importantly it does not say it.

Phil 3:9 And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God through faith:

 

[David Lamb]

There is a world of difference. For we are to be dead but alive in Christ and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the FAITH OF the Son of God who gave Himself for us. Which is the whole point of us being found in Him as the text starts out. We are to live through Him through God. For it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

Faith in Christ does not bring that out. And most importantly it does not say it.

Phil 3:9 And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God through faith:

The bottom line, as I see it, is that Paul says he did not have his own righteousness. The context of those words suggests that he was not singling himself out, but was illustrating something which is true for ALL Christians.

 

[HIM]

“18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will [to do], I do not do; but the evil I will not [to do], that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not [to do], it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.” (Ro 7:18-21 NKJV)

You have taken those text out of context. Not only is Paul speaking of his pre-Christ state. In Chapter 8 He proclaims that he had been freed from this state, the Law of sin through the law of the spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. That the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh

 

[zoidar]

No, being forgiven does not equal being perfectly righteous. The apostle Paul had to write:

“18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will [to do], I do not do; but the evil I will not [to do], that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not [to do], it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.” (Ro 7:18-21 NKJV)

Yes, he'd been forgiven, but he knew he was still a sinner. This teaching is known as "The Great Exchange." Both Martin Luther and John Calvin believed it. Calvin called it "The Wonderful Exchange". He wrote:

"We cannot be condemned for our sins, from whose guilt he has absolved us, since he willed to take them upon himself as if they were his own. This is the wonderful exchange which, becoming Son of man with us, he has made us sons of God with him; that, by his descent to earth, he has prepared an ascent to heaven for us; that, by taking on our mortality, he has conferred his immortality upon us; that, accepting our weakness, he has strengthened us by his power; that, receiving our poverty unto himself, he has transferred his wealth to us; that, taking the weight of our iniquity upon himself (which oppressed us), he has clothed us with his righteousness."

I don't know what Calvin and Luther taught about it, but I don't think it's clear from the quote above Calvin believed Christ perfect righteousness is imputed to us. It is a wonderful exchange, true, we receive by forgiveness the righteousness that comes from Christ sinless sacrifice, it is the righteousness of Christ to be sinless, and Christ receives our guilt of sins up on the cross.

"Perfectly righteous" does not mean much to me. Either you are righteous or not. There is no in between.

 

[Hammster]

I understand it can be understood that way. I'm of the belief when you are forgiven everything you are clothed with white garments of righteousness. In this view being sinless is the same as being righteous. God bless!

Is God holy only because He’s sinless?

 

[zoidar]

Is God holy only because He’s sinless?

No, I would not say that!

 

[Hammster]

No, I would not say that!

Are we required to be holy?

 

[David Lamb]

I don't know what Calvin and Luther taught about it, but I don't think it's clear from the quote above Calvin believed Christ perfect righteousness is imputed to us. It is a wonderful exchange, true, we receive by forgiveness the righteousness that comes from Christ sinless sacrifice, it is the righteousness of Christ to be sinless, and Christ receives our guilt of sins up on the cross.

"Perfectly righteous" does not mean much to me. Either you are righteous or not. There is no in between.

So what righteousnesses was Isaiah referring to when he said that they are like filthy rags? What of the "righteousness which is from the law" which Paul wrote about? Those two obviously didn't think it was either "righteousness" or "no righteousness".

 

[zoidar]

Are we required to be holy?

Yes, but we are not required to be like God in all aspects. From what I can tell God being holy is not the same as man being holy.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, but we are not required to be like God in all aspects. From what I can tell God being holy is not the same as man being holy.

Once again, here’s scripture that says otherwise.

As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
— 1 Peter 1:14-16

 

[zoidar]

Once again, here’s scripture that says otherwise.

As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
— 1 Peter 1:14-16

Paul is hardly saying be Holy like God in all aspects, even be Triune and know the future of everything. He is saying act in holiness like God acts in holiness.

 

[Hammster]

Paul is hardly saying be Holy like God in all aspects, even be Triune and know the future of everything. He is saying act in holiness like God acts in holiness.

It’s Peter, and he actually said it.

but like the Holy One who called you,

 

[zoidar]

It’s Peter, and he actually said it.

but like the Holy One who called you,

14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; (NIV)

 

[Hammster]

14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; (NIV)

Yes. Just as.

 

[zoidar]

Yes. Just as.

You are reading it as isolated words, where you should read the whole sentence and in context.

 

[zoidar]

So what righteousnesses was Isaiah referring to when he said that they are like filthy rags? What of the "righteousness which is from the law" which Paul wrote about? Those two obviously didn't think it was either "righteousness" or "no righteousness".

What verses of Paul are you thinking about? There is no righteousness through the Law.

"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
- Galatians 2:21 (NIV)

Concerning Isaiah. It seems the people thought they could get away with living sinfully if they just did some righteous deeds. Because of their sinful life and unrepentance God doesn't even acknowledge their righteous deeds, however deeds not even done with a righteous heart and intention.

You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
Behold, You were angry, for we sinned,
We continued in them a long time;
And shall we be saved?
For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
— Isaiah 64:5-6