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Yes, but God wouldn't save someone for the cost of being unrighteous, even He desires to see the person saved. God is bound by His character. He could save anyone, but will not save everyone for any cost.Okay. Do you think God can save anyone He chooses to save??
Ah, but LOVE NEVER FAILS. He has already counted the cost before He began, and deemed Himself sufficient to accomplish the task.Yes, but God wouldn't save someone for the cost of being unrighteous, even He desires to see the person saved. God is bound by His character. He could save anyone, but will not save everyone for any cost.
You an universialist?Ah, but LOVE NEVER FAILS. He has already counted the cost before He began, and deemed Himself sufficient to accomplish the task.
YESYou an universialist?
How would saving anyone who Christ took the penalty for their sin be unrighteous?Yes, but God wouldn't save someone for the cost of being unrighteous, even He desires to see the person saved. God is bound by His character. He could save anyone, but will not save everyone for any cost.
Not allowed outside of Controversial Christian Theology.
God has a demand for receiving the Holy Spirit. The demand is to repent. If that demand is fulfilled God can righteously give the person the gift of the Holy Spirit or else He can't.How would saving anyone who Christ took the penalty for their sin be unrighteous?
Why not quote the verse and show (which it does not show) how a person does not just humbly accept the charity/mercy/grace/Love extended to all people.It would seem that Paul would disagree. 1 Ti 1:13-16
Psalms 51:5 is a problem translation for Jews and Christians, so this one verse takes a lot of explaining, but it also has to be consistent with all these verse in Psalms at least.Psalms 51:5 NLT For I was born a sinner, Yes from the moment my mother conceived me.
How is that fair and just?I believe we are born sheep or goats.
In my understanding, not repenting is sinfu because it’s disobedience. Is that not sinful in your understanding?God has a demand for receiving the Holy Spirit. The demand is to repent. If that demand is fulfilled God can righteously give the person the gift of the Holy Spirit or else He can't.
It would be like the employee is stealing money from the company and the boss makes him the employe of the month. It would be unjust. But if the employee came to the boss, asked for forgiveness, wanting to pay back what he had stolen, the boss could righteously give him the title employe of the month.
It’s not fair at all. All of us should be goats.How is that fair and just?
Ro. 9 is talking about us being born Jew or Gentile, but Paul spends lots of words to show how Jews and Gentile re equal Ro. 9-11 is a good start on this topic.
I'm not sure if I would say not repenting is a sin, at least not an active sin, but what comes from not repenting is sin. Even if it is a sin how would it matter? There is still the same demand. We need to repent for God to righteously bestow us the gift.In my understanding, not repenting is sinfu because it’s disobedience. Is that not sinful in your understanding?
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.I'm not sure if I would say not repenting is a sin, at least not an active sin, but what comes from not repenting is sin. Even if it is a sin how would it matter? There is still the same demand. We need to repent for God to righteously bestow us the gift.
I think the verse is stating that he as well as all of us were born under condemnation. The carnal mind is at odds with God and cannot bePsalms 51:5 is a problem translation for Jews and Christians, so this one verse takes a lot of explaining, but it also has to be consistent with all these verse in Psalms at least.
It has been decades since I did my study and I have many pages of notes.
This could all be a very poetic hyperbole David is using and he should be allowed some poetic license.
We have similar verses:
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Ps 22 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
Ps. 139: 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
I argue that a child is Innocent:
Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30
Sin is committed by individually breaking God's law: 1 Jn 3:4
The spoken and written gospel message is God's power for salvation: Rom 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:18
God said that the king of Tyrus was "blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezek 28:15
"God made men upright but they sought devices" Eccl 7:29 (plural can't refer only to Adam)
Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the "blood of the innocent"
Jesus teaches us that we must become as little children to enter the kingdom of God (Matt. 18:3- 4; Lk. 18:16-17)
Apostle Paul: Rom 7:9-11 "Once alive" "sin killed me"
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Ps 22 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
Ps. 139: 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Looking Deeper into Psalms 51:5
This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10 ). TWOT, #623, 1:270.
The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the 'circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act.
Read some of the English translation Psalms 51:5
KJV Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
YLT Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.
WEB Behold, I was born in iniquity. My mother conceived me in sin
RSV Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
KJV Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Granted some translators have a problem with the sin being David’s mother’s problem and will point to verses like these:
In PS 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's positive relationship with the Lord.
Psalm 86:16 Turn to me and have mercy on me; show your strength in behalf of your servant; save me, because I serve you just as my mother did. She sounds righteous to me.
Thus, they majorly change the translation to be David’s sin, But are these translations the result of preconceived ideas?
The wording seems to be saying: the sin is the mothers at conception.
What do we know which could show it to be David’s mother and a problem?
David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail)…..:
1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”
Again the translators do not like the idea of these sisters only being David’s so the change the wording and meaning, but the better translations is:
KJV Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three.
Why might these two only be David’s sisters and not Jesse’s daughters: 2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man’s son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab’s mother.”
Nahash is king of the Ammonites.
1 Chronicles 19:2 David thought, “I will show kindness to Hanun son of Nahash, because his father showed kindness to me.” So David sent a delegation to express his sympathy to Hanun concerning his father. When David’s envoys came to Hanun in the land of the Ammonites to express sympathy to him,
Why did Nahash show kindness to David?
David’s Jewish mother seems to have been previously married to Nahash the Ammonite and later was the second wife of Jesse, this was not a “sin” most likely but later could have been perceived as a sin, thus Jesse not counting David as one of his sons and all his brothers treating him badly.
A lot more can be said, but it was not David being conceived a sinner, but his mother conceiving him could be perceived as a sin.
Now we can go further into scripture showing how David was treated and persecuted as an outsider by his family and loved only by his mother.
So, if a person does not actively disbelieve in the gospel, then can they be saved? For example, the hundreds of millions of folks in China who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ, nor ever will hear His name in their lifetime. If some, or any, of these folks can be saved, under what terms will they be saved?I'm not sure if I would say not repenting is a sin, at least not an active sin, but what comes from not repenting is sin. Even if it is a sin how would it matter? There is still the same demand. We need to repent for God to righteously bestow us the gift.
Paul was on his way to arrest those of the church when he had a divine visitation. That was the point being made. He was not a repentantPaul was found: "I acted in ignorance and unbelief", so was Paul not different than most sinners?
How is the work of Christ limited to a few sinners since: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"?
"for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life." this is not saying: those made or appointed to believe in Him, but those who would believe in Him.
Slide over to "The argument for universal salvation from the book of Romans". If you want to know come on over.So, if a person does not actively disbelieve in the gospel, then can they be saved? For example, the hundreds of millions of folks in China who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ, nor ever will hear His name in their lifetime. If some, or any, of these folks can be saved, under what terms will they be saved?
Thanks for the invitation. I am waiting to hear how zoidar responds to my questions.Slide over to "The argument for universal salvation from the book of Romans". If you want to know come on over.
I said I don't know. I suppose it is.From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
— Matthew 4:17
It’s a command.
It seems as if you are saying that some disobedience to God isn’t sinful.
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