Prophesy

[erin74]

I've been listening to a few talks on women's role in the bible, and the topic of prophesy has come up a few times as part ofthe passages.

Just wondering what your thoughts on prophesy are? Is there a difference between NT and OT prophesy? What would prophesy look like in church?

 

[mlqurgw]

I've been listening to a few talks on women's role in the bible, and the topic of prophesy has come up a few times as part ofthe passages.

Just wondering what your thoughts on prophesy are? Is there a difference between NT and OT prophesy? What would prophesy look like in church?

I am answering from memory so forgive any mis-statements. I am an old man and entitled to a faulty memory.

A prophet in the simplest terms is one who has a message form God. He is a messenger. He speaks in the name of God the Word of God. In that sense a true gospel preacher is a prophet.

The office of Prophet ceased when Christ came. He is The Prophet by whom God speaks now. Heb. 1:1,2

There is also the sense in which prophecy is foretelling future things. Of course the OT prophets fulfilled this role and so also the Apostles but that office died with them. Anyone who says thay have a prophecy form God today is saying that the Scriptures aren't complete.

When Satan can get folks wrapped up in prophecy he has won the day. Not the war but the day. Focus on prophecy gats us off the Gospel and that is what is needed in this age. If we point people to Christ the final things will take care of themselves.

 

[erin74]

What do you make of the NT passages that say some are prophets. eg 1Cor11 says that women can pray and prophesy in church.

I have heard some say it is possibly like someone sharing their testimony, or a deputation of sorts.

I've also heard the other extreme of personal prophesy.

There are also rules for prophesy in church eg 1 Cor 14 - only 2 or 3. That they have to be taken to the elders first. That they should be weighed up, etc.

 

[arunma]

A lot of people say that New Testament prophecy is not a revealing of a message from God, but rather preaching from the Scriptures (or something else of that nature). I would believe the same thing, but I find it difficult to reconcile with this:

And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, 'This is how the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'" (Acts 21:11)

​

The speaker, the prophet Agabus, seems to be speaking the word of God. Earlier, the same prophet had predicted a famine:

And one of them named Agabus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the world (this took place in the days of Claudius). (Acts 11:28)

​

So then, it appears that New Testament prophets do the same thing as the Old Testament prophets. They predict the future and speak the word of God.

Anyway, I find this to be one of the more confusing issues in Scripture. I'd be interested in hearing others' comments.

 

[erin74]

I hadn't considered this verse.

I'd love to hear others comments. I haven't thought through it much, but we have a member of our bible study who has a history in a pentecostal church, and has thought through some of this stuff. I would really like to explore a bit more and make sure she isn't off track with her beliefs (she is more moderate than some I've heard).

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

I hadn't considered this verse.

I'd love to hear others comments. I haven't thought through it much, but we have a member of our bible study who has a history in a pentecostal church, and has thought through some of this stuff. I would really like to explore a bit more and make sure she isn't off track with her beliefs (she is more moderate than some I've heard).

There are several verses that suggest Prophecy continues into the NT period. Let's just look at one of them.

1I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8Therefore it says,

"When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men."



9(In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,[a] 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

Ephesians 4:1-14 ESV Emphasis by CDL​

If one looks at the passage, it is apparent that certain gifts exist, and that there is a time where they will not exist. In particular, the gifting is limited by verse 13. This necessitates that one looks at prophecy in general.

There exist two forms of God's revelation to man;

1. General Revelation
2. Special Revelation
   

General Revelation is that which is intended for mankind in general, and available to all men. An example of this is given in Romans 1:18-32, and in Psalm 19. It DOES NOT provide a salvificknowledge of God, only a general knowledge of God's existence, and a bit of what He requires.

Special Revelation is intended for the ENTIRE community of believers. Scripture is an example of Special Revelation. It is Salvific, (Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God).

Prophecy often (but not always) is part of the content of special revelation. Many prophecies were not recorded in Scripture, and were obviously not intended for the Entire community of believers. Had they been so intended, they would have been recorded in Scripture. An example of prophecy not being recorded as Scripture is found in Acts: 15:32. It is obvious that the prophecies given by Judas and Silas in that passage were intended for the church at Antioch, and not all believers.

This demonstrates a division in prophecy:

• Universal Special Revelation -intended for the entire community of faith
• Limited Special revalation -intended for a specific audience or person.
  
  

One must determine what is being referred to when using the term prophecy. It is not good to take prophecies intended for an individual or limited group, and apply them as if they were intended for the entire community of faith. Such a practise would violate the Reformed (and biblical) doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture.

 

[heymikey80]

I've been listening to a few talks on women's role in the bible, and the topic of prophesy has come up a few times as part ofthe passages.

Just wondering what your thoughts on prophesy are? Is there a difference between NT and OT prophesy? What would prophesy look like in church?

There is definitely a difference between NT and OT predictive prophecy. But it's not a difference in the message, but a difference in the progression of the prophecy. The prophets of our time no longer bring progressively more revelation about God's redemption. "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son ..." Heb 1:1-2 So the role of the prophets has been overwhelmingly pushed down, subservient to the role of the Son of God.

This doesn't generate a thorough principle of cessationism, though. The idea of cessationism is that (1) prophecy should pass away once the message is delivered, and (2) the whole fulfillment of the message is delivered with the advent of Christ. In many practical terms these two facts are the case, and as a result prophecy no longer serves a function where they are the case. However, you can see that there are some conditions under which this logic doesn't apply.

(1) The idea that prophecy has no other function than to deliver the message is not completely true.

Prophecy had an affirming value, an identifying value for those to whom the prophecy was directed. You get a true prophet of God and there's your hair standing up on the back of your neck. The guy knows things will happen, he's affirming the God of the Universe has some special relationship with a particular group of people.

Prophecy also has an affirming value for the message itself. If the prophet was consistent enough to be a true prophet (100% track record, remember people!) then everybody knew it wasn't some guy trying to gain a following or make a buck. These words were valuable.

People who aren't really prophets take a big risk if they invite scrutiny. There's no rationalizing it if their predictions fail. They're not prophets. And frankly it seems to me, projecting from the Mosaic Law, they deserve to be stripped of all church offices for posing.

(2) There're many places where the message of the gospel has not been taken -- and many people around us haven't heard, either. The Holy Spirit hasn't tied His hands to using nonmiraculous work to draw His people.

However, the Holy Spirit definitely intends to draw us to where He is working, converting people with the gospel proclamation. When the Spirit does miraculous things, what do we concentrate on? Yep, the miracle. So practically speaking, I think the Spirit avoids miracles when they don't accomplish what He wants, but does miracles when they do accomplish what He wants.

So I think what we see is a practical cessation: where prophecy serves no purpose or operates against God's wishes, of course prophecy ceases. The Spirit still can make prophets, though, and still uses prophets to save people.

 

[bradfordl]

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Doesn't this statement alter the properties of prophecy that follows it in time? Agabus' prophecies occured prior to this. Wouldn't any that came after this that had a predictive quality be adding to revelation? Why would God have this statement recorded, then change His mind and grant more predictive revelation? Wouldn't these verses mean that from then on prophecy would only be an expounding of the written Word and have no predictive revelation, which is now complete?

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Doesn't this statement alter the properties of prophecy that follows it in time? Agabus' prophecies occured prior to this. Wouldn't any that came after this that had a predictive quality be adding to revelation? Why would God have this statement recorded, then change His mind and grant more predictive revelation? Wouldn't these verses mean that from then on prophecy would only be an expounding of the written Word and have no predictive revelation, which is now complete?

Just because something is predicted it does not follow that such a prediction is to be regarded in the same manner as is scripture. That has never been the case. As evidence i submit the following:

1) "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2) and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' 3) you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Deuteronomy 13:1-3, ESV, Emphasis by CDL
​

Something interesting in that passage. Even in that time, the message of a prophet is to be compared to what God has already revealed.

If such a predictive (or even non predictive) prophecy was not intended for the entire church, how could such a threat to the canon of scripture exist? Does God speak to individuals and/or groups today? Why would the required method of discernment of truth of falsity of a supposed prophecy be any different today?

 

[erin74]

I really want to do a word study on prophesy in the NT - particularly in the epistles. I think it would be interesting to put together the instructions to the church on prophesy and see what we make of it.

Unfortunately my computer doesn't have the software on it at the moment, and it's like 11pm, but maybe tomorrow, unless someone else gets inspired. I think it would be interesting to see what we can know about it.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

I really want to do a word study on prophesy in the NT - particularly in the epistles. I think it would be interesting to put together the instructions to the church on prophesy and see what we make of it.

Unfortunately my computer doesn't have the software on it at the moment, and it's like 11pm, but maybe tomorrow, unless someone else gets inspired. I think it would be interesting to see what we can know about it.

If you have the Mozilla Firefox browser http://www.mozilla.com/, you can add features called extensions. Among those extensions is what is called the Bible Toolbar (either version 1.5, or 2.0). You can get that at the following URL: http://www.bibletoolbar.net/


This extension can be easily configured, and will provide some links to commentaries. For other services, i often use Crosswalk.com. If you need help in configuring or more information, PM me, and i'll talk you through it. If you can give a valid email address, i can even send you screen shots of the extension.

 

[erin74]

We own a programme called Bibleworks which is very good. I just need to reinstall it. Do you know it at all. Does the software you are talking about do much different to what bible works would do?

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

We own a programme called Bibleworks which is very good. I just need to reinstall it. Do you know it at all. Does the software you are talking about do much different to what bible works would do?

i'm afraid that i can't answer that question. You see, my primary operating system is SuSE Linux 9.2 Professional. While i have Windows XP Home installed on this computer, i rarely use it. The programme you speak of is probably designed for Windows, and i could not install it in Linux, unless i user VMWare or a Windows emulator such as WINE.

If you have Firefox installed (there are Windows, Linux, and Mackintosh versions of Firefox), you can easily add the extension.

If you wish, i can send you some screen shots of the extension, and how to use it. Have to do that with regular email though, it's too much for CF's private mail system to handle.

 

[erin74]

No worries for now - I think my computer is going back to get looked at again tomorrow, so I'll 'borrow' my dh's which has bible works installed. I might check with you when I get my computer back though.