Prophesies

[AV1611VET]

The problem is that Kings was written at least after the Exile.

How do you know it wasn't?

Perhaps Jeroboam kept a diary?

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

How do you know it wasn't?

Perhaps Jeroboam kept a diary?

The author of Kings, usually referred to as the Deuteronomistic historian, may have used some sources like annals but this still doesn't fit as an answer to the question. One can be suspicious enough, given that the author of the text lived long after Josiah, that it may have been a prophecy written into the history.

 

[AV1611VET]

The author of Kings, usually referred to as the Deuteronomistic historian, may have used some sources like annals but this still doesn't fit as an answer to the question. One can be suspicious enough, given that the author of the text lived long after Josiah, that it may have been a prophecy written into the history.

I'm sure God preserved the Source Documents for a time.

When their time was up, He made sure they were copied correctly.

Anyone can copy the U.S. Constitution, then put a line or two in the copy and call it authentic.

But a comparison of the copy with the original will expose it.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I'm sure God preserved the Source Documents for a time.

When their time was up, He made sure they were copied correctly.

Anyone can copy the U.S. Constitution, then put a line or two in the copy and call it authentic.

But a comparison of the copy with the original will expose it.

Yes, but the OP asked if there were prophecies which predicted things ahead of time and that this could be more empirically proven. You said Kings, I said Kings was written in the Exile (at the least). If there was a document and God preserved it, and it formed part of Kings which recorded a specific prophecy about Josiah then one could still make the case that the author, writing during the Exilic period (again, at the least), may have just painted history however he wanted, inserting a prediction when he saw fit.

I hate it when the US Constitution gets compared to the bible. I'm not American and don't really like America. I don't care if there are forgeries of the US Constitution because I don't think the original is all that interesting anyway.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, but the OP asked if there were prophecies which predicted things ahead of time and that this could be more empirically proven. You said Kings, I said Kings was written in the Exile (at the least). If there was a document and God preserved it, and it formed part of Kings which recorded a specific prophecy about Josiah then one could still make the case that the author, writing during the Exilic period (again, at the least), may have just painted history however he wanted, inserting a prediction when he saw fit.

Did you read Adam Clarke's commentary?

Here it is again, with some highlights:

This is one of the most remarkable and most singular prophecies in the Old Testament. It here most circumstantially foretells a fact which took place three hundred and forty years after the prediction; a fact which was attested by the two nations. The Jews, in whose behalf this prophecy was delivered, would guard it most sacredly; and it was the interest of the Israelites, against whom it was levelled, to impugn its authenticity and expose its falsehood, had this been possible. This prediction not only showed the knowledge of God, but his power. He gave, as it were, this warning to idolatry, that it might be on its guard, and defend itself against this Josiah whenever a person of that name should be found sitting on the throne of David; and no doubt it was on the alert, and took all prudent measures for its own defence; but all in vain, for Josiah, in the eighteenth year of his reign, literally accomplished this prophecy, as we may read, 2Ki 23:15-20.

If the Jews couldn't do it, I'm sure no Internet poster is going to do it.

I hate it when the US Constitution gets compared to the bible. I'm not American and don't really like America. I don't care if there are forgeries of the US Constitution because I don't think the original is all that interesting anyway.

Then use Canadian currency.

Suppose someone put Jack Chick's picture on the Canadian twenty dollar bill?

Or changed BANK OF CANADA to CANADIAN BANK?

Don't you think someone would catch that?

Even if it took 340 years?

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Did you read Adam Clarke's commentary?

Here it is again, with some highlights:

OK... Well, presumably Adam Clarke may have known that the book was written during the Exilic period, so why assume that something is a prediction of future events when the text records both the prediction and the event? It would be like me writing a book about the life of Abraham Lincoln and including a snippet about how someone predicted that he would be assassinated and then recording the assassination. Can't you see that this can be a criticism on what you've said? Don't you want to respond in an apologetics forum with the best and most intelligently construed responses to the query?

If the Jews couldn't do it, I'm sure no Internet poster is going to do it.Then use Canadian currency.

Suppose someone put Jack Chick's picture on the Canadian twenty dollar bill?

Or changed BANK OF CANADA to CANADIAN BANK?

Don't you think someone would catch that?

Even if it took 340 years?

I don't like money being compared to sacred scripture either... Sacrilegious...

 

[AV1611VET]

It would be like me writing a book about the life of Abraham Lincoln and including a snippet about how someone predicted that he would be assassinated and then recording the assassination.

Um ... no.

Try this:

"It would be like me writing a book about the life of Abraham Lincoln and including a prophecy that John Booth, a stage actor, would assassinate him."

Remember this part of the prophecy?

1 Kings 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

House of David, Josiah by name ... John Booth.

Get it?

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Um ... no.

Try this:

"It would be like me writing a book about the life of Abraham Lincoln and including a prophecy that John Booth, a stage actor, would assassinate him."

Remember this part of the prophecy?

1 Kings 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

House of David, Josiah by name ... John Booth.

Get it?

So writing a book which includes a statement that Booth would assassinate Lincoln? I was speaking in generalities but sure. The Deuteronomistic "prophecy" could be the same as a contemporary book which says just that.

 

[Hawkins]

Looking forward to your thoughts!

The purpose of the prophecies is for God to show His works to His sheep, such that His sheep can recognize Him and His works.

Now what's your suggestion that what God should do about His prophecies.


Jesus said,

Matthew 13:12 (NIV)
Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

So I am a former believer trying to find my way back to faith. That's said I am at this point throughly convinced that there simply is simply no good reason to believe in God. Often in my conversations with believers they will quote the Bible as an authoritative text. This authority is based on its divine inspiration. One of the ways that some Christians claim to know that the Bible is divine is that it contains prophesies that have come true, prophesies that no mere moral could have written or orchestrated. When I was a believer I remwmber my pastor saying, full of confidence and authority, that the coming of Jesus fulfilled hundreds of specific prophesies proving without doubt that he is the son of god. However, when I eventually went back to look at some of these prophesies I was puzzled to say the least. Many of them don't seem to be prophesies at all or are about something else entirely. That said I rain fascinated by the subject and I believe that if I could be convinced that the Bible was a book of valid prophesies that this would go a long way towards helping me accept it ad the word of God.
In this thread I would like to discuss, debate and investigate the various prophesies in the Bible to see what force they have as an apologetic for the Bible specifically but Christianity in general.
Before we start it is always helpful to define terms and unfortunately prophecy is a slippery one
I am pulling my definition from a talk by Matt Dillahunty (prominent atheist speaker). Obviously this will slant the discussion a certain way but I can only popose a definition of prophecy that I am comfortable with here at the outset. That said if you would like to change some of the parts of the definition, take some out, add new ones or an nuances to existing elements please do so and include your rational for your perspective. I am always happy to be corrected or guided towards a more sophisticated understanding.

All that said here is my first stab at defining prophecy :

1)Prophecies must be written before the events they describe and that we must be able to verify this to a reasonable degree of certainty. This is nuanced by how much time is to elapse. If I look at a thunder cloud and predict rain today this wouldn't signify. If I look at a thunder cloud and predict a thunderstorm exactly one year from now at this exact time...well then we have something!
2)The statement must be intended as a prophecy. So if I say wow it sure is raining ....I have not made a prophecy that it will rain.
3)There must be some element of the extraordinary. Maybe the pediction is for an incredible event, or is incredibly detailed or is about a totally ordinary event but there are an extrordinary number of events predicted. Needless to say that events should not be easily fufilled. For example if I predict that somewhere in the world every day a minimum of 10 people will cry and that this will be true on 2 consecutive days, I haven't really predicted anything noteworthy.

4)unless specifically stated as a multiple occurrence prophecy, each prophecy should be fufilled by only one instance. So if I predict a woman will be the president of the United states and it happens next year and again 100 years from now, I can't claim that my one prediction was a specific prediction of both instances.

5) the prophecy should not be open to interpretation. If I were to say...in the day of the acendancy of the woman shall there be a great calamity...this is not a prediction. It could be satisfied in so many ways by so many variables that it is useless as prophecy.

6) Prophecy needs to be specific about time, location etc. Again if I predict a female leader shall rise and don't say what year, rise to what position, what country etc then the prophecy has no value because it will be fufilled eventually by chance.

7) The next part is from the video and not actually one I agree with ...he says the prophecy must be publicly known but not easy for people who know about it to bring about. I think the part about being publicly known is actually a part of #1. If we discover a prophecy and verify that it was written 1000 years ago, meets all the other criteria and came true last week I don't think that it is invalid just because nobody knew about it for all those years. However if it is publicly known it would need to be very difficult to manufacture. For example the alleged prophecy about coming into the city on a donkey. Well Jesus was Jewish and knew that prophecy and donkeys being readily available picked one up to ride in on....not really impressive as a fufillment of prophecy since anyone who knew about it could have achieved this.

Anyway these are my initial thoughts. At present I don't believe that the Bible is inspired and don't believe that there are examples of divine prophecy in the Bible but as I said before I would really like to be wrong about that

Looking forward to your thoughts!

I would think that catching them in one lie is enough to slant the whole discussion to the point that other passages which appear to be prophetic are in doubt.

So if you read, for example, Matthew 1, you see the "virgin birth" prophecy. Most Bibles will have the footnote showing this is referring to Isaiah 7:14. Read that verse in context, going as far back and as far forward as you like; you will see that the passage is about the king of Judah who is grieved because his city is about to be sacked. Isaiah approaches the king and tells him that Judah will not be sacked, and that the king may ask the Lord a sign. The king refuses, likely out of reverence to Deuteronomy 6:16, and then Isaiah says that one will be given anyway: that a "virgin" (or young woman) will give birth to a child named Emmanuel (this is already not Jesus), and before the child is old enough to understand the difference between good and evil Judah's enemies will be destroyed. So how is it that the birth of a baby by a different name 500 years later is confirmation of this prophecy? Pushing this square peg into the round hole constitutes dishonesty.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I would think that catching them in one lie is enough to slant the whole discussion to the point that other passages which appear to be prophetic are in doubt.

So if you read, for example, Matthew 1, you see the "virgin birth" prophecy. Most Bibles will have the footnote showing this is referring to Isaiah 7:14. Read that verse in context, going as far back and as far forward as you like; you will see that the passage is about the king of Judah who is grieved because his city is about to be sacked. Isaiah approaches the king and tells him that Judah will not be sacked, and that the king may ask the Lord a sign. The king refuses, likely out of reverence to Deuteronomy 6:16, and then Isaiah says that one will be given anyway: that a "virgin" (or young woman) will give birth to a child named Emmanuel (this is already not Jesus), and before the child is old enough to understand the difference between good and evil Judah's enemies will be destroyed. So how is it that the birth of a baby by a different name 500 years later is confirmation of this prophecy? Pushing this square peg into the round hole constitutes dishonesty.

You probably won't find all that many academic scholars who are at all interested in arguing that the ancient prophets wrote predictions about Jesus' life and ministry. Those days are all but gone in critical academia. However, you will find many biblical scholars beginning to engage in what's known as "OT in NT" studies which is an attempt at looking at the biblical writings and their intertextuality. Scholars engaged in this sort of field of inquiry tend to use terms like "tapestry" or "mosaic" when describing the biblical texts and their relationship, they tend to criticise other approaches which attempt to read texts in isolation to one another and they consider the biblical texts to be related as parts of a web. Scholars who approach the texts this way tend to use terms like "allusion", "quotation" and "echo" when referring to the intertextual relationship, they tend to question whether an intertextual relationship is an unconscious echo or a deliberate allusion and they tend to espouse various interpretations of the texts which may suppose either of these possible relationships. A scholar approaching Matthew 1:23 and the usage of Isaiah 7:14 would likely say that the texts can be read intertextually, that the author of Matthew, so immersed within the scriptural traditions of the prophets, would have alluded and quoted them to interpret most everything.

 

[juvenissun]

So I am a former believer trying to find my way back to faith. That's said I am at this point throughly convinced that there simply is simply no good reason to believe in God. Often in my conversations with believers they will quote the Bible as an authoritative text. This authority is based on its divine inspiration. One of the ways that some Christians claim to know that the Bible is divine is that it contains prophesies that have come true, prophesies that no mere moral could have written or orchestrated. When I was a believer I remwmber my pastor saying, full of confidence and authority, that the coming of Jesus fulfilled hundreds of specific prophesies proving without doubt that he is the son of god. However, when I eventually went back to look at some of these prophesies I was puzzled to say the least. Many of them don't seem to be prophesies at all or are about something else entirely. That said I rain fascinated by the subject and I believe that if I could be convinced that the Bible was a book of valid prophesies that this would go a long way towards helping me accept it ad the word of God.
In this thread I would like to discuss, debate and investigate the various prophesies in the Bible to see what force they have as an apologetic for the Bible specifically but Christianity in general.
Before we start it is always helpful to define terms and unfortunately prophecy is a slippery one
I am pulling my definition from a talk by Matt Dillahunty (prominent atheist speaker). Obviously this will slant the discussion a certain way but I can only popose a definition of prophecy that I am comfortable with here at the outset. That said if you would like to change some of the parts of the definition, take some out, add new ones or an nuances to existing elements please do so and include your rational for your perspective. I am always happy to be corrected or guided towards a more sophisticated understanding.

All that said here is my first stab at defining prophecy :

1)Prophecies must be written before the events they describe and that we must be able to verify this to a reasonable degree of certainty. This is nuanced by how much time is to elapse. If I look at a thunder cloud and predict rain today this wouldn't signify. If I look at a thunder cloud and predict a thunderstorm exactly one year from now at this exact time...well then we have something!
2)The statement must be intended as a prophecy. So if I say wow it sure is raining ....I have not made a prophecy that it will rain.
3)There must be some element of the extraordinary. Maybe the pediction is for an incredible event, or is incredibly detailed or is about a totally ordinary event but there are an extrordinary number of events predicted. Needless to say that events should not be easily fufilled. For example if I predict that somewhere in the world every day a minimum of 10 people will cry and that this will be true on 2 consecutive days, I haven't really predicted anything noteworthy.

4)unless specifically stated as a multiple occurrence prophecy, each prophecy should be fufilled by only one instance. So if I predict a woman will be the president of the United states and it happens next year and again 100 years from now, I can't claim that my one prediction was a specific prediction of both instances.

5) the prophecy should not be open to interpretation. If I were to say...in the day of the acendancy of the woman shall there be a great calamity...this is not a prediction. It could be satisfied in so many ways by so many variables that it is useless as prophecy.

6) Prophecy needs to be specific about time, location etc. Again if I predict a female leader shall rise and don't say what year, rise to what position, what country etc then the prophecy has no value because it will be fufilled eventually by chance.

7) The next part is from the video and not actually one I agree with ...he says the prophecy must be publicly known but not easy for people who know about it to bring about. I think the part about being publicly known is actually a part of #1. If we discover a prophecy and verify that it was written 1000 years ago, meets all the other criteria and came true last week I don't think that it is invalid just because nobody knew about it for all those years. However if it is publicly known it would need to be very difficult to manufacture. For example the alleged prophecy about coming into the city on a donkey. Well Jesus was Jewish and knew that prophecy and donkeys being readily available picked one up to ride in on....not really impressive as a fufillment of prophecy since anyone who knew about it could have achieved this.

Anyway these are my initial thoughts. At present I don't believe that the Bible is inspired and don't believe that there are examples of divine prophecy in the Bible but as I said before I would really like to be wrong about that

Looking forward to your thoughts!

Unfortunately, there is NO prophecy anywhere at anytime that would meet your requirement. You may as well to delete this word from every dictionary.

In science, there is "prediction" based on past trend and rules of development. That is the closest thing which could match the prophecy you expected. But that is science. You do not expect a person who gave prophecy to be a scientist or does science.

So, by definition, a prophecy SHOULD NOT have the quality of accuracy.

Under these restrictions, do you have a revised set of criteria to identify prophecy?

 

[DogmaHunter]

So, by definition, a prophecy SHOULD NOT have the quality of accuracy.

Wait, so..... lack of accuracy in a prophecy is evidence of divine inspiration?

lol, owkay.

 

[juvenissun]

Wait, so..... lack of accuracy in a prophecy is evidence of divine inspiration?

lol, owkay.

Not logic, no logic.
Put this in an algorithm, it will certainly crash.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Not logic, no logic.
Put this in an algorithm, it will certainly crash.

The only thing crashing here is your argument in defense of prophecies....

 

[Athée]

Unfortunately, there is NO prophecy anywhere at anytime that would meet your requirement. You may as well to delete this word from every dictionary.

In science, there is "prediction" based on past trend and rules of development. That is the closest thing which could match the prophecy you expected. But that is science. You do not expect a person who gave prophecy to be a scientist or does science.

So, by definition, a prophecy SHOULD NOT have the quality of accuracy.

Under these restrictions, do you have a revised set of criteria to identify prophecy?

Hey thanks for weighing in I must admit that I am a bit puzzled by your reply. Perhaps you could clarify since eon first reading you seem to be saying that a prophecy should not be accurate. In that case what do you mean by the word prophecy and perhaps more importantly how would you know one was successful if there was no requirement for accuracy? For example if I predict / prophecy that on March 6 2020 at 2pm a Kangaroo would morph into a fully grown elephant in the oval office and this does not come to pass would you still say that what I had said was a prophecy and simply a failed one or would you say that it was never a prophecy to begin with?
Anyway thanks for replying
Peace

 

[juvenissun]

Hey thanks for weighing in I must admit that I am a bit puzzled by your reply. Perhaps you could clarify since eon first reading you seem to be saying that a prophecy should not be accurate. In that case what do you mean by the word prophecy and perhaps more importantly how would you know one was successful if there was no requirement for accuracy? For example if I predict / prophecy that on March 6 2020 at 2pm a Kangaroo would morph into a fully grown elephant in the oval office and this does not come to pass would you still say that what I had said was a prophecy and simply a failed one or would you say that it was never a prophecy to begin with?
Anyway thanks for replying
Peace

A prophecy could be accurate. But accuracy is not a necessary property for a prophecy. In particular, if a prophecy which would be fulfilled over a period of time, then the time accuracy is beyond the question. The fulfillment of a prophecy could be very subtle and very slow, so that many people wouldn't even notice it.

The Bible (OT) has many prophecies about the Jesus Christ. Did any Jews at Jesus' time aware of them? Since when did Christians start to realize that those prophecies have been fulfilled?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Hey thanks for weighing in I must admit that I am a bit puzzled by your reply. Perhaps you could clarify since eon first reading you seem to be saying that a prophecy should not be accurate. In that case what do you mean by the word prophecy and perhaps more importantly how would you know one was successful if there was no requirement for accuracy? For example if I predict / prophecy that on March 6 2020 at 2pm a Kangaroo would morph into a fully grown elephant in the oval office and this does not come to pass would you still say that what I had said was a prophecy and simply a failed one or would you say that it was never a prophecy to begin with?
Anyway thanks for replying
Peace

Everything he says blows my mind. No exception, no joke. My brain is like a trick cigar every time I read what he has to say.

 

[HitchSlap]

Um ... no.

Try this:

"It would be like me writing a book about the life of Abraham Lincoln and including a prophecy that John Booth, a stage actor, would assassinate him."

Remember this part of the prophecy?

1 Kings 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

House of David, Josiah by name ... John Booth.

Get it?

Is this the Josiah you're referencing?

"Josiah is only known through biblical texts. No reference to him exists in surviving texts of the period from Egypt or Babylon, and no clear archaeological evidence, such as inscriptions bearing his name, has been found."

 

[AV1611VET]

Is this the Josiah you're referencing?

"Josiah is only known through biblical texts. No reference to him exists in surviving texts of the period from Egypt or Babylon, and no clear archaeological evidence, such as inscriptions bearing his name, has been found."

That would be the man!

Incidentally, who do archaeologists think did reign in Israel 640-631 BC, if not Josiah?