Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

Phil W · May 21, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Let’s examine Romans 6, the verses you quoted, a little closer.

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too MIGHT (doesn’t say will) walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin MIGHT be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body (apparently we are still capable of allowing sin to reign in our body) so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness (apparently we are capable of presenting the members of our body to sin and unrighteousness); but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.”
‭‭ROMANS‬ ‭6:1-14‬ ‭NASB

If I said you can’t keep coming to work late does that mean it is impossible for you to keep coming to work late or does it mean you will get fired if you do? Your not reading this in the correct context. Jesus obviously knew that it was possible for His faithful 11 apostles to fail to abide (remain) in Him which is why He warned them of the consequences.

Your "context" allows men to sin.
By doubting what is written, you change the whole character of the message.
You ignore the possibility of walking in "newness of life" when the scripture says it CAN happen.
You infer "might not", and I say "might actually do...".

redleghunter · May 21, 2019

Phil W said:
Doesn't it look like the sanctification came first?
How?

You make some good points. Sanctify is to set apart, to make holy. It’s why Paul used the term “saints” in his epistles addressing the churches.

As in Acts 26 when Paul speaks of his conversion:

15‘Who are You, Lord?’ I asked.

‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’the Lord replied. 16‘But get up and stand on your feet. For I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen from Me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.’

Phil W · May 21, 2019

redleghunter said:
You make some good points. Sanctify is to set apart, to make holy. It’s why Paul used the term “saints” in his epistles addressing the churches.

As in Acts 26 when Paul speaks of his conversion:

15‘Who are You, Lord?’ I asked.

‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’the Lord replied. 16‘But get up and stand on your feet. For I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen from Me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.’

Good call.

BNR32FAN · May 22, 2019

redleghunter said:
Why cut off the words of Christ in verse 10 of that discourse:

John 15: NASB

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

This is where most stop. There's more:

11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

Does not sound like Jesus is giving them a stern warning about perishing and losing their salvation. He is teaching them though.

Now this the confirmation:

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.

And now this showing the 11 were chosen, that they were appointed to go and bear fruit and that the fruit they produced would remain (remain not get burned or lost).

16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.

No verse 11 is not a warning but verses 2 and 6 are. That’s why I quoted verses 1-10 because that is the part of the message where Jesus is warning them. Why would you pick verse 11 when I didn’t quite verse 11 as being a warning? That makes absolutely no sense at all. So let me ask you, is this a warning?

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is an ultimatum in which a person who is in Christ will perish if he does not remain in Christ. Too many people want to ignore the context here and say those who don’t abide were never in Christ. First of all Jesus specifically says The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit. Second of all a person cannot remain somewhere they have never been. Third a branch cannot be cut off from something it is not currently attached to.

Jesus is telling them in verse 16 that He has chosen them to complete a task. If your boss tells you he hired you to file paperwork does that mean you are incapable of failing to file the paperwork? Verses 1-10 are clear that it is possible for someone, even the apostles, to fail to abide in Him otherwise this message would be completely useless.

BNR32FAN · May 22, 2019

Phil W said:
You were the one who added "glorified" in post # 254.
And if your "church" has added to scripture...that is on them to repent of.

It looks like the same grammar to me.
The "offering" has been completed. That offering has perfected for ever those who were sanctified.

Doesn't it look like the sanctification came first?
How?
"...we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:10)
As the offering has been completed, so also has the perfecting.

I wasn’t quoting a scripture when I said “glorified” do you never mention the Trinity because the word is not in the scriptures? Are you adding to the scriptures if you say the word Trinity? Your arguments are completely ridiculous. How does using the word glorified add to scriptures?

BNR32FAN · May 22, 2019

Phil W said:
Your "context" allows men to sin.
By doubting what is written, you change the whole character of the message.
You ignore the possibility of walking in "newness of life" when the scripture says it CAN happen.
You infer "might not", and I say "might actually do...".

Do you know anyone who never sins? Out of all the Christians you know do any of them never sin? I’m simply showing you that everyone still sins and showing you how the scriptures indicate that it is still possible to sin after justification.

BNR32FAN · May 22, 2019

Phil W said:
Your "context" allows men to sin.
By doubting what is written, you change the whole character of the message.
You ignore the possibility of walking in "newness of life" when the scripture says it CAN happen.
You infer "might not", and I say "might actually do...".

Why would Paul write

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness

If they are incapable of sinning?

redleghunter · May 22, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
This is an ultimatum in which a person who is in Christ will perish if he does not remain in Christ.

I believe the context shows Judas is the example of not abiding.

I'm saying that not as a brush off but what we have amassed in the context and full text. After teaching those who do not abide perish, Jesus affirms with the 11 in verse 16 that they were (1) chosen by Him, (2) appointed to bear fruit and (3) that fruit would remain. Jesus tells them this just maybe two to three hours before all of them leave Him in the greatest hour of need when Jesus needed friends, with the senior among them Peter going further by denying Jesus three times. Yet all were told they were chosen, would bear fruit and that it would remain. And Jesus called them friends.

The question is did Judas ever abide? I think there is firm evidence Judas did not as Christ called him "a devil" and "son of perdition."

BNR32FAN · May 22, 2019

redleghunter said:
I believe the context shows Judas is the example of not abiding.

I'm saying that not as a brush off but what we have amassed in the context and full text. After teaching those who do not abide perish, Jesus affirms with the 11 in verse 16 that they were (1) chosen by Him, (2) appointed to bear fruit and (3) that fruit would remain. Jesus tells them this just maybe two to three hours before all of them leave Him in the greatest hour of need when Jesus needed friends, with the senior among them Peter going further by denying Jesus three times. Yet all were told they were chosen, would bear fruit and that it would remain. And Jesus called them friends.

The question is did Judas ever abide? I think there is firm evidence Judas did not as Christ called him "a devil" and "son of perdition."

No Judas didn’t believe according to John 6:64 and he had been stealing money from the treasury. So no I don’t think he ever abided in Christ and Christ never abided in Him. I believe Judas is a prime example of the type of people mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23. His story truly is a sad one. I believe he could’ve been saved even after betraying Jesus if he had just believed and confessed. I can’t imagine his mindset after following Christ Himself for 3 years having never believed. I can’t understand how anyone’s heart can be so calloused.

Phil W · May 22, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I wasn’t quoting a scripture when I said “glorified” do you never mention the Trinity because the word is not in the scriptures? Are you adding to the scriptures if you say the word Trinity? Your arguments are completely ridiculous. How does using the word glorified add to scriptures?

You are insinuating that "glorification" follows sanctification.
While the glorification of our bodies will happen at our resurrection on the last day, you make it look like sanctification also can't happen till then.
That isn't how I read or understand sanctification.

BTW, I don't use the word "trinity".
But I'm sure there must be a thread on that topic somewhere else.

Phil W · May 22, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Do you know anyone who never sins? Out of all the Christians you know do any of them never sin? I’m simply showing you that everyone still sins and showing you how the scriptures indicate that it is still possible to sin after justification.

Yes, I do know men and women whose repentance from sin was real.
Not everyone loves themselves more than they love God and neighbor.

Phil W · May 22, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Why would Paul write

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness

If they are incapable of sinning?

Incapable?,
We are all "capable" of sinning, but our love for the Lord trumps any temporary joy we may receive from the wickedness of this world.
Sin is always waiting around to pounce, but if we adhere to the multiple exhortations about guarding ourselves from it we will be victorious at our final judgement.
Sins are choices.
Make the right choices.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Look for the escapes: they are there!

redleghunter · May 22, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
No Judas didn’t believe according to John 6:64 and he had been stealing money from the treasury. So no I don’t think he ever abided in Christ and Christ never abided in Him. I believe Judas is a prime example of the type of people mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23. His story truly is a sad one. I believe he could’ve been saved even after betraying Jesus if he had just believed and confessed. I can’t imagine his mindset after following Christ Himself for 3 years having never believed. I can’t understand how anyone’s heart can be so calloused.

Well said brother. What you write above should be heart wrenching for all of us.

BNR32FAN · May 22, 2019

Phil W said:
Incapable?,
We are all "capable" of sinning, but our love for the Lord trumps any temporary joy we may receive from the wickedness of this world.
Sin is always waiting around to pounce, but if we adhere to the multiple exhortations about guarding ourselves from it we will be victorious at our final judgement.
Sins are choices.
Make the right choices.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Look for the escapes: they are there!

Sin is sometimes a reaction also. Doubt and worry are also sins. I stumble in these from time to time despite my best efforts to avoid them.

BNR32FAN · May 22, 2019

Phil W said:
Yes, I do know men and women whose repentance from sin was real.
Not everyone loves themselves more than they love God and neighbor.

How do you know they never sin?

Phil W · May 22, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Sin is sometimes a reaction also.

Not for the born again.
We are a new kind of creature, one whose thoughts are based on love and helping.

Doubt and worry are also sins. I stumble in these from time to time despite my best efforts to avoid them.

Please show me from scripture where doubt and worry are called sins.
Paul doubted, in Gal 4:20.
Peter doubted, in Acts 10:17.
Doubt precedes knowledge.

Wasn't Jesus worried in the garden of Gethsemane?
His sweat dropped from him like drops of blood!

Doubt about God might be another thing, but to not know if you should or shouldn't pack an umbrella?
Doubt leads to mistrust, and we can't afford not to trust God...for everything we need.

Phil W · May 22, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
How do you know they never sin?

I have been given a conscience from God.
All men have one.
We all know if what we are trying to do or accomplish is evil or not.
And we all have the power to extricate ourselves from bad situations.

Whoops, I misread "me" for "they" in your post.
I have found that those who commit sin just cannot hang around with the children of God. They eventually make themselves known as servants of sin.
And they leave.
Some have returned later, but only two that I can remember from about twenty who left.

FreeGrace2 · May 22, 2019

BNR32FAN said: ↑
Sin is sometimes a reaction also.

Phil W said:
Not for the born again.
We are a new kind of creature, one whose thoughts are based on love and helping.

When Paul wrote "stop grieving the Holy Spirit" in Eph 4:30 and "stop quenching the Holy Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19, where those believer's thought based on "love and helping", or something else?

Please show me from scripture where doubt and worry are called sins.

Rom 14:23 - But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Rescued One · May 22, 2019

redleghunter said:
Acts 26
I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.’

I love that verse. It was really an eye-opener when I first read it several years ago.

BNR32FAN · May 22, 2019

Phil W said:
I have been given a conscience from God.
All men have one.
We all know if what we are trying to do or accomplish is evil or not.
And we all have the power to extricate ourselves from bad situations.

Whoops, I misread "me" for "they" in your post.
I have found that those who commit sin just cannot hang around with the children of God. They eventually make themselves known as servants of sin.
And they leave.
Some have returned later, but only two that I can remember from about twenty who left.

Every Christian I know says they still sin. I actually took a poll here on CF about the subject and out of I think 65 people only 2 or 3 said they never sin.

When we doubt or worry we are not trusting in God. I sometimes struggle in this in times of financial problems or when I’m not getting many hours at work. I start to worry about being able to pay my bills and provide for my family. But God always comes thru for us. I sinned just last Saturday when an oncoming vehicle started coming into my lane and I shouted “sh@$ lady!!”. It wasn’t intentional to shout at her it was just a reaction as I was trying to swerve over to avoid hitting her. I was right next to a guardrail and couldn’t swerve over but a few inches. I’m at least greatful that my windows were rolled up so she wasn’t able to hear me. Even tho I’m a devoted servant of Christ I was still able to stumble in sin. Granted it was unintentional but still a sin none the less.

Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

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