Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

[Karola]

Yes, indeed ... Praise the Lord!
He is NOT in any box of our own making!
Anything is possible with the Lord.
That's one reason why I now believe in one of the aspects of Calvinism ... divine election as per Romans 9 especially.
Why He chooses someone is still a bit of a mystery.
But, this thread is NOT about this!

Yes, as Paul states in rom9:16

It does not therefore depend on mans desire or effort, but on God's mercy

 

[Karola]

Karola, so you are against God warning anyone?
I would say that some benefit and maybe some are hindered by it.

I chatted to a Christian counsellor a couple of years ago. He counselled people who had ended up in a terrible state, due to going to churches that virtually expected them to ''perform perfect'' to remain in a saved state. Many of those poor people had also become consumed by all manner of concupiscence(rom7:8) An american woman, on another website, whos husband was also a Christian counsellor, told me, half the sex addicts in the USA had at one time or another been to ''holiness'' churches.
It brings an adverse reaction, if you stress dire warnings of imperfect behaviour, but have not firstly clearly spelt out the message of grace given by Christ himself to the person charged with being the chief exponent of the new covenant to the world. That, in a nutshell is the problem

 

[BCsenior]

It does not therefore depend on mans desire or effort, but on God's mercy

Salvation, you mean?
All I see in the NT is that
man's co-operation is required!
A covenant requires the co-operation of both parties.
Why are BACs given the Holy Spirit, a new nature,
and the precious word of God?
To make it possible for them to be overcomers,
so they can be fellow heirs with Christ.
Karola, IMO, you have a blind spot in this one area,
and the Lord desires that you see the truth about it.

 

[Karola]

Karola, so you are against God warning anyone?
I would say that some benefit from them,
and maybe some are hindered by them.
There are multitudes of warnings all throughout
the whole Bible. -- So, why are they there?
You tell us.

Did you not read my previous post to you? I really do not mean to be offensive, but I will have to clearly spell it out. A minister once said: ''85% of Evangelicals do not understand the justification/sanctification process''. Based on my experience in a charismatic/fundamentalist church I would say that figure is accurate. I never knew the truth when I went to those churches either. I know exactly where you are coming from, for your views exactly replicate the church of my youth.
Let me repeat. If all you do is give warnings, but fail to understand the true message, disaster can and does very often follow for many who hear that message

 

[BCsenior]

I chatted to a Christian counsellor a couple of years ago. He counselled people who had ended up in a terrible state, due to going to churches that virtually expected them to ''perform perfect'' to remain in a saved state.

I got this far.
It was horrible teaching.
Repentance is the solution to sin.

 

[Karola]

I got this far.
It was horrible teaching.
Repentance is the solution to sin.

The solution to sin is found here:

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

 

[BCsenior]

If all you do is give warnings, but fail to understand the true message, disaster can and does very often follow for many who hear that message

Please explain clearly.
Also, why all of the many warnings?

 

[Karola]

Please explain clearly.
Also, why all of the many warnings?

Please do not cut the majority of my posts out when I write them to you
If you do not understand the true message of justification/sanctification, and just keep repeating warnings to people that sin must cease to be in a saved state, you are preaching righteousness of observing the law, for, sin is the transgression of the law. That is what happens in the real world, I know!!!!!

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

All you do is give sin power over the individual. Read romans ch7, it's all there!!!

You know, I truly wish I could worship at a fundamentalist/charismatic church, but I will never again step into a church as like the one I was raised in. I so wish these churches understood the true message, yet they do not, though they constantly emphasie the Holy Spirit.

 

[BCsenior]

The solution to sin is found here:
For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

Aaaaah, now the truth is out !!! ... Praise God!
Now I see where you are.
You are missing the whole teaching of Paul in Romans
(and everywhere else) ... Are you ready for this?

Jesus came to deliver us from sin's bondage!
What we have been given has FREED us,
not only from being Satan's captives,
but from being sin's captives!
BACs DO NOT HAVE TO SIN ANY MORE !!!

This is why the Word came and became flesh,
and died for us ... to free us from having to sin!

 

[BCsenior]

.
BACs DO NOT HAVE TO SIN ANY MORE !!!

But, if they do, they need to repent,
and the win will be cleansed by Jesus' blood.
What do you think 1 John is saying?

 

[Karola]

Aaaaah, now the truth is out !!! ... Praise God!
Now I see where you are.
You are missing the whole teaching of Paul in Romans
(and everywhere else) ... Are you ready for this?

Jesus came to deliver us from sin's bondage!
What we have been given has FREED us,
not only from being Satan's captives,
but from being sin's captives!
BACs DO NOT HAVE TO SIN ANY MORE !!!

This is why the Word came and became flesh,
and died for us ... to free us from having to sin!

I am missing the teaching of Paul in Romans? Let us see:
Please tell me why sinfull passions are aroused in people by the law if they live under it Rom7:5
Why was sin able to take occasion of one of the ten commandments to make saul the Pharisee a worse sinner/he became full of all manner of concupiscence(rom7:8)
Why will sin not be your master for you are not under law but under grace(rom6:14)

I do not think you can answer any of those questions. If you understood Paul's message in romans, you would be able to

 

[Karola]

.
BACs DO NOT HAVE TO SIN ANY MORE !!!

But, if they do, they need to repent,
and the win will be cleansed by Jesus' blood.
What do you think 1 John is saying?

That's a great blanket statement, like the one where you quoted: If you love me obey my commandments. And you concluded if we do not love Jesus we cannot be saved.
Yet, you yourself do not even try and obey all of Christ's commands do you. This is the problem in your type of church. Blanket statements that bear no reflection on the lives of people making them

 

[BCsenior]

I've stated my case, which is the truth.
So, I have no more to say.
I wish you all the best.

 

[Karola]

I've stated my case, which is the truth.
So, I have no more to say.
I wish you all the best.

You see, you cannot answer those questions concerning three verses in romans can you. So which of us does not understand the message of Romans?

 

[BCsenior]

3 verses?
You must be kidding!
I'll give you one more chance!
The 100 warning verses in the NT.
What are they there for?
Last chance!

 

[Karola]

3 verses?
You must be kidding!
I'll give you one more chance!
The 100 warning verses in the NT.
What are they there for?
Last chance!

You ever wondered why the Corinthian church got many warnings, but the roman church, got a message the Corinthian church did not get? Think about it. Those who have surrendered their lives to God in their hearts, can know and accept the true message, those who have hearts where they still want to follow the flesh(or are not so committed to following their faith) need the warnings.
However, though their was much sin in the Corinthian church, Paul when he wrote to them called them: The church of God in Corinth.

 

[Karola]

3 verses?
You must be kidding!
I'll give you one more chance!
The 100 warning verses in the NT.
What are they there for?
Last chance!

BTW
I can give you far more than three verses. Please do an exegesis of the following seven verses for me, as you believe you understand Romans and I do not:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Rom7:7-13

 

[Karola]

You have to read the bible as a cohesive whole. Just feeling you should issue warnings to people, while not understanding Paul's core message of grace will do more harm than good

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am not trying to find fault with what you wrote, simply to reason it with you. Concerning the first quote from John ch15
When you obey my commandments you remain in my love
Do we take this as literally obeying the commands of Christ in the Gospels? If we do, I am only speaking honestly, I have never met any Christian who has even tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels. Therefore, if we take those words literally, I have never met any professing Christian who actually is a christian. Can we say there is a pass mark of obedience to Christ's commands in the gospels, and if you reach the pass mark you remain in Christ's love? That would not seem right to me.
Concerning Matt25:46
If we take this literally, are you a goat if you do not invite strangers into your home? Are you a goat if you do not visit people in prison? Again, That would seem to cut a lot of professing Christians out of the faith to me. For how often do Christians just forsake their own needs for others? We all fall short in that regard.

James2:14

Now this is a very interesting verse, bearing in mind Paul's constant message:
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works
Rom9:30-32

If we tell others, their salvation hinges on works, then they can only be in a righteous state before God depending on works when we think about it. And if we tell them that, in the real world they will in reality consider their righteousness before God to be works. Then you are in contradiction of Paul's main gospel message

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law Rom3:28

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works
Rom4:4-8



Would it be fair to say, James and Paul were looking at this subject from differing angles so to speak?

I think the fact remains, if you believe your salvation hinges on works, works of the law, you will in reality live your Christian life under righteousness of works/righteousness of obeying the law. For to you, that is what your continued righteousness/justification hinges on

Those are fair questions sister. Concerning John 15 I agree that no one can keep all of Jesus’ commandments flawlessly but faith is about love and devotion not perfection. God knows that we are not flawless that’s why He sent His Son to die for our sins. The word keep means to adhere to. We are called to do the best we can. I believe Jesus wants us to constantly strive to do better which is why He didn’t say obey the best you can. He wants us to strive for perfection.

Concerning Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus gave those as examples to emphasize that those people didn’t have love and compassion for others. Their faith didn’t produce good works which means they may have believed but they did not have love and devotion to God. Love and devotion is faith. Love and devotion produces works and obedience or repentance. A complete lack of works or repentance is proof of a complete lack of love and devotion or faith in God.

Concerning James 2:14-26 James mentions two types of faith. There is a saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. James is talking about how we show our faith. In Romans 4:4 is speaking about the ungodly person who is justified before doing works.

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:5‬

We are all called to God while we were still sinners. But we will undergo the process of sanctification when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Then the Holy Spirit will dwell within us but we must adhere to His guidance and refrain from sin and do good works as much as possible. Because we are saved by faith (love and devotion) if we do not repent and do good works we are not walking in the Spirit. We have not been born again and become a new creation if we are still living in our old ways. Jesus said to Nicodemus we must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. I hope this helps to explain the way I see the scriptures. Have a blessed day sister.

 

[Karola]

Those are fair questions sister. Concerning John 15 I agree that no one can keep all of Jesus’ commandments flawlessly but faith is about love and devotion not perfection. God knows that we are not flawless that’s why He sent His Son to die for our sins. The word keep means to adhere to. We are called to do the best we can. I believe Jesus wants us to constantly strive to do better which is why He didn’t say obey the best you can. He wants us to strive for perfection.

Concerning Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus gave those as examples to emphasize that those people didn’t have love and compassion for others. Their faith didn’t produce good works which means they may have believed but they did not have love and devotion to God. Love and devotion is faith. Love and devotion produces works and obedience or repentance. A complete lack of works or repentance is proof of a complete lack of love and devotion or faith in God.

Concerning James 2:14-26 James mentions two types of faith. There is a saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. James is talking about how we show our faith. In Romans 4:4 is speaking about the ungodly person who is justified before doing works.

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:5‬

We are all called to God while we were still sinners. But we will undergo the process of sanctification when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Then the Holy Spirit will dwell within us but we must adhere to His guidance and refrain from sin and do good works as much as possible. Because we are saved by faith (love and devotion) if we do not repent and do good works we are not walking in the Spirit. We have not been born again and become a new creation if we are still living in our old ways. Jesus said to Nicodemus we must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. I hope this helps to explain the way I see the scriptures. Have a blessed day sister. I am in no way

Concerning Matt ch25. You said, Jesus examples showed people did not have love and compassion for others. I completely agree with you. In my view, Christ's commands can be summed up as examples of: Love God and love your neighbour. The two greatest commandments. In my view, we are not to look to each and every command of Christ and strive to obey them, but to love our fellow man, the more we do that, the more we live as Christ wants us to live. Hence: Carry each others burdens(love them), and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2
I think it is better to state that than to ask others to do what we do not do ourselves(please, I am only generalising, not thinking of you at all in that comment)
Concerning righteousness, Paul wrote:
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed – a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: ‘The righteous will live by faith.’ Rom1:17

That is clear, in Paul's view, your righteousness for the whole of your Christian life is faith(in Christ) Paul also states: The law is not based on faith Gal3:12
Here is an example of what I believe. A man beats his wife and gets drunk every night, he has numerous affairs, and blasphemes night and day. He professes to have become a Christian. God will accept him there and then, before any change is seen through a righteousness of faith in his son. However, three months later there is no change whatsoever in the man. He never had saving faith to begin with, for faith without works is dead faith