Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

[bcbsr]

No one receives salvation until they die or judgement day comes. A Christian is saved by faith. If he doesn’t do good works then he doesn’t have a saving faith. James 2:14 Did you read John 15:1-10? What is your interpretation of it? And why did Jesus condemn the goats in Matthew 25:31-46?

And yet it says, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 and "it is by grace you have been saved" Eph 2:8 Apparently people are saved before they die. As for other verses, as I said they are diagnostic.

 

[BCsenior]

There are no verses that say we must practice righteousness to become righteous.

Practicing righteousness proves that we are righteous,
but it does not make us righteous.

“… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil … Whoever has been born of God does not sin (habitually)… In this
the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:7-10)
Notice who “the children of God” are
vs. who belongs to Satan.

And there are a dozen more.

 

[BCsenior]

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

IMO, this one word "believes" means
"really believes to the point of loving Jesus
enough to obey Him and His commandments".

Multitudes of NT verses reveal that we're not
talking about mere intellectual or heart belief.
We're talking about believing to the point of
real obedient action!

Just for example:
BACs MUST endure in their faith to the point of death,
which is coming soon re:
- Christian persecution (see the gospels)
- incredible pressure to take the mark of the beast
(see Rev 13 and Rev 14)

 

[BNR32FAN]

And yet it says, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 and "it is by grace you have been saved" Eph 2:8 Apparently people are saved before they die. As for other verses, as I said they are diagnostic.

The Greek word that is translated to “hears” is akoúō which means

1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf

2) to hear b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said

3) to hear something a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence b) to get by hearing learn c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher e) to comprehend, to understand

Why didn’t you answer my questions about John 15:1-10 and Matthew 25:31-46? You won’t be able to discern the full truth of God’s Word by omitting parts that don’t coincide with your beliefs. Both of these scriptures I’ve quoted are Jesus’ words so I suggest you adhere to the verse you quoted and “hear His words”. All of them not just bits and pieces.

 

[Karola]

Practicing righteousness proves that we are righteous,
but it does not make us righteous.

“… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil … Whoever has been born of God does not sin (habitually)… In this
the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:7-10)
Notice who “the children of God” are
vs. who belongs to Satan.

And there are a dozen more.

You're charismatic aren't you? I was raised in a pentecostal church. I remember as a young teenager, going to summer camps, sitting on a wooden bench in a giant marque waiting to be prayed for to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Nothing ever happened, though other young people around me did receive. I figured it was because of all my faults and failings, I was not worthy enough to receive. As a sixteen year old, I used to sit on a wall after the church service and smoke a cigarette, the looks I got from some of the stalwarts of the church made me think I would go to hell for smoking alone, let alone all my other imperfections.
Anyway, a few years later I finally read the NT for myself, past the gospels. I amazed at what I read, for the fundamentalist church of my youth had never preached what I was now reading. I prayed again for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and this time received it. But due to the experiences of my youth, there was a nagging doubt as to whether it was truly real/authentic. Then one day I went to a meeting where an internationally known evangelist was preaching. They prayed for a few of us in a side room after the service. Though the evangelist had never met me before, they told me much about my life and confirmed I was Baptised in the Spirit and spoke in tongues. Yet at that time I still smoked.
I learnt a valuable lesson that day, God does not demand of his children, what some of his other children do, in order to be saved, remain in a saved state, or receive His blessings

 

[BCsenior]

Thanks for sharing, Karola.

 

[Karola]

Thanks for sharing, Karola.

you're welcome

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're charismatic aren't you? I was raised in a pentecostal church. I remember as a young teenager, going to summer camps, sitting on a wooden bench in a giant marque waiting to be prayed for to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Nothing ever happened, though other young people around me did receive. I figured it was because of all my faults and failings, I was not worthy enough to receive. As a sixteen year old, I used to sit on a wall after the church service and smoke a cigarette, the looks I got from some of the stalwarts of the church made me think I would go to hell for smoking alone, let alone all my other imperfections.
Anyway, a few years later I finally read the NT for myself, past the gospels. I amazed at what I read, for the fundamentalist church of my youth had never preached what I was now reading. I prayed again for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and this time received it. But due to the experiences of my youth, there was a nagging doubt as to whether it was truly real/authentic. Then one day I went to a meeting where an internationally known evangelist was preaching. They prayed for a few of us in a side room after the service. Though the evangelist had never met me before, they told me much about my life and confirmed I was Baptised in the Spirit and spoke in tongues. Yet at that time I still smoked.
I learnt a valuable lesson that day, God does not demand of his children, what some of his other children do, in order to be saved, remain in a saved state, or receive His blessings

He does demand a certain level of devotion tho. Our salvation does depend on our devotion to God. Surely we cannot live in sin and refuse to do good works and still be saved. Living that sort of life would be completely ignoring the guidance of the Holy Spirt.

 

[Karola]

He does demand a certain level of devotion tho. Our salvation does depend on our devotion to God. Surely we cannot live in sin and refuse to do good works and still be saved. Living that sort of life would be completely ignoring the guidance of the Holy Spirt.

It comes down to whether we understand the foundation upon which the new covenant stands, and whether we have been truly born again concerning it:

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 ‘This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more
Heb10:16&17

 

[Karola]

He does demand a certain level of devotion tho. Our salvation does depend on our devotion to God. Surely we cannot live in sin and refuse to do good works and still be saved. Living that sort of life would be completely ignoring the guidance of the Holy Spirt.

I will put up a testimony later(no time now) that should better explain my thinking, and hopefully allay your concerns

 

[BNR32FAN]

It comes down to whether we understand the foundation upon which the new covenant stands, and whether we have been truly born again concerning it:

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 ‘This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more
Heb10:16&17

Yes God has given us a heart transplant by replacing our evil sinful heart with a loving and compassionate heart. But we still have free will and we must adhere to what our heart is telling us because it is from the Holy Spirit. Sure we will all stumble from time to time but if we continuously and willfully sin knowing what we are doing is wrong then we are not exercising our faith. It is by faith (devotion) that we receive grace. There is evidence of this in the chapter you quoted Hebrews 10.

“Let us hold tightly without wavering to the hope we affirm, for God can be trusted to keep his promise. Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works. And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near. Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. For we know the one who said, “I will take revenge. I will pay them back.” He also said, “The Lord will judge his own people.” It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Think back on those early days when you first learned about Christ. Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering. Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things. You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever. So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. Remember the great reward it brings you! Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God’s will. Then you will receive all that he has promised. “For in just a little while, the Coming One will come and not delay. And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.” But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:23-39‬

 

[BCsenior]

"And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.” But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved.” Hebrews‬ ‭10:39‬

This is one of my favorites.
But, Paul has no idea who might draw back in the future.
He is always edifying, exhorting, encouraging
... almost to the point of lying.
Another example is in Romans 6;
he says they're slaves of God, etc.
but is yelling at them to stop sinning!

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is one of my favorites.
But, Paul has no idea who might draw back in the future.
He is always edifying, exhorting, encouraging
... almost to the point of lying.
Another example is in Romans 6;
he says they're slaves of God, etc.
but is yelling at them to stop sinning!

Actually we’re not sure who the author of Hebrews was. I admit it does in many ways seem like his style but Paul is notorious for making his authorship known in the opening statements of his epistles and Hebrews does not specify who the author is. As for whether the author did or did not know whether these people would fall from grace I would prefer to believe he did know for the sake of it being written in the inspired scriptures. All things are possible with God.

 

[bcbsr]

The Greek word that is translated to “hears” is akoúō which means

1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf

2) to hear b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said

3) to hear something a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence b) to get by hearing learn c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher e) to comprehend, to understand

Why didn’t you answer my questions about John 15:1-10 and Matthew 25:31-46? You won’t be able to discern the full truth of God’s Word by omitting parts that don’t coincide with your beliefs. Both of these scriptures I’ve quoted are Jesus’ words so I suggest you adhere to the verse you quoted and “hear His words”. All of them not just bits and pieces.

I did answer your question. You just didn't listen. You didn't "hear".

 

[BNR32FAN]

I did answer your question. You just didn't listen. You didn't "hear".

And yet it says, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 and "it is by grace you have been saved" Eph 2:8 Apparently people are saved before they die. As for other verses, as I said they are diagnostic.

This is not an explanation of John 15:1-10 or Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Karola]

Yes God has given us a heart transplant by replacing our evil sinful heart with a loving and compassionate heart. But we still have free will and we must adhere to what our heart is telling us because it is from the Holy Spirit. Sure we will all stumble from time to time but if we continuously and willfully sin knowing what we are doing is wrong then we are not exercising our faith. It is by faith (devotion) that we receive grace. There is evidence of this in the chapter you quoted Hebrews 10.

“Let us hold tightly without wavering to the hope we affirm, for God can be trusted to keep his promise. Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works. And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near. Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. For we know the one who said, “I will take revenge. I will pay them back.” He also said, “The Lord will judge his own people.” It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Think back on those early days when you first learned about Christ. Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering. Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things. You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever. So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. Remember the great reward it brings you! Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God’s will. Then you will receive all that he has promised. “For in just a little while, the Coming One will come and not delay. And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.” But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:23-39‬

Do you think smoking is worse say than not loving your neighbour? Is smoking worse than impure thoughts? Is smoking worse than demanding of others what you do not demand of yourself to enter heaven? I ask, in relation to the post you responded to when I stated I was baptised in the Spirit while I still smoked. My apologies if I misunderstood why you wrote what you did

 

[Karola]

He does demand a certain level of devotion tho. Our salvation does depend on our devotion to God. Surely we cannot live in sin and refuse to do good works and still be saved. Living that sort of life would be completely ignoring the guidance of the Holy Spirt.

When I was young my parents moved church, so I obviously moved with them. When I got to the new church, I suddenly felt I must take God very seriously, so after four weeks I responded to an altar call and set out on my Christian walk. The first thing different I noticed was, I became aware of my sin before God in a very real and personal way. I had been forever changed, no longer would I be able to sin in ignorance, nor without conscience, those days were behind me. This is because I had been born again, the law was in my heart and mind, and I could not hide from it. I so much wanted to live a pure, and holy life for God, uncontaminated by sin, believe me, I wanted nothing more. The day I got saved I knew I stood before God spotless, for all my past sins had been forgiven. But no matter how much I wanted to remain in that pure and spotless state I could not. I got angry at times(I was young) but I knew I should not. I did not love others as I should, I knew that was wrong also. In so many ways I had so many faults/imperfections. And now I could not hide from them. I would come before God asking him to forgive my sins, and when I earnestly did so, I believed I was spotless again before him, but the sin always returned, and it started to get worse over time. I wasn’t so happy as I had been before I got saved, for now my conscience was hurting me badly.

But once I reached puberty the problems multiplied, along came impure thoughts. I honestly did not want them, I wanted to be pure and Holy for God, but no matter how hard I tried not to have them, they always came back and they got worse and worse as time went on. I used to panic when those thoughts came. Christians had to live a pure and holy life for God, they cannot live a sinfull life can they? You don’t get to pick and choose which of God’s laws you obey and which you don’t right? You have to obey on the inside as well as the outside. I so wished I could live my life as the churchgoers did I met on Sunday, they looked so Godly, when I got a warm handshake after the service, and a scripture verse if it was felt it was needed. I imagined they must all be spotless on the inside. I wondered what I was doing at the church to be honest. I could act Godly on the outside, but it wasn’t enough, the law was in my heart, and I could not hide from any of it. In the end, I walked away from the church, refusing to be a hypocrite. I could not live a pure and Holy life for God. since I got saved, I had just become a much worse sinner, full of all manner of concupiscence

Looking back at that time now, how can I describe it? I would not have not have known sin but by the law, I would not have known the rottenness of lust if the law had not said: Thou shalt not covet, but by me knowing that commandment, I ended up full of all manner of concupiscence. I had felt alive once, before the law came to me, for their was no condemnation then, but when it did come, sin(consciousness) sprang to life and I died/felt condemned. The commandment I believed would give me life(if I obeyed it) instead brought death(for I could not keep it. I had become exceeding sinfull.


I’m sure you know I have almost word for word quoted Paul’s experience as a Pharisee. For I had tried to attain heaven as he did, so Got the same result he did.

A few years later my life was in a mess. I cried out to God and wanted to follow him. Someone asked me to go and see a man, to chat to him, I did. He asked me to read a book, I read in, then a follow up book. There was a chapter in the book of Paul’s message of grace. I was stunned by what I read, for in the fundamentalist church of my youth I had never been taught what I was reading now. I could have no righteousness before God of obeying His laws, I could not be good enough for God. Christ was my only righteousness before His Father. I thought about this much, and dared to believe, even I, with all my faults could be a Christian. I rededicated my life to God, and was determined to follow after His Son. But what of the sin? I didn’t want it, how were sinfull passions to be dealt with? There was a particular sin that had been my master for six years, and I was its slave, with no hope it seemed of seeing any victory over it. I knelt before God, and simply asked him to deal with it(as I had many times previously) and left it in his hands. For the next three days I committed this sin, which is, in truth breaking the Ten Commandments, but for the first time in my life I did not let the fact I committed this sin make me feel condemned. Jesus was my righteousness before His Father, I had none of my own based on obeying the law. It was so hard to believe that. A voice in my head was constantly telling me ‘’you cannot be a Christian and do what you are doing, you’re a hypocrite, you just want a licence to sin, you have to live a pure life if you want to be saved, not do what you are doing.’’ On and on the voice went, and to be honest, it made such logical sense to me, how could I do what I was doing and still believe I was saved? But I did believe it, for the bible said Christ was my righteousness before God, and being raised in a fundamentalist church, I believed the bible was the inerrant word of God, so if it stated that, it was the truth. On the fourth day, this sin that had been my master for six years stopped. When I feared hell due to committing it the sin only got worse, now, after four days of trusting Jesus was my righteousness, the particular sin stopped. Paul wrote:

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law(righteousness of obeying the law) but under grace(righteousness of faith in Christ) Rom6:14


It truly is an incredible message, and I know from my own personal experience it is so true. I wish far more would accept the message, but sadly few do.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you think smoking is worse say than not loving your neighbour? Is smoking worse than impure thoughts? Is smoking worse than demanding of others what you do not demand of yourself to enter heaven? I ask, in relation to the post you responded to when I stated I was baptised in the Spirit while I still smoked. My apologies if I misunderstood why you wrote what you did

No no sister please forgive me I wasn’t referring to smoking at all. I became a believer almost 6 years ago and I still to this day struggle with smoking. I’ve tried several times and prayed asking for help and I keep failing. I want to quit so badly but every time I try I get headaches and anxiety really bad. It actually causes me to stumble in frustration and sometimes anger. Not anger at people mostly anger at certain situations. Mostly work related. I just don’t know what else to do so for now I’m waiting and hoping that God will give me strength and guidance in His time. I’ve changed so much from my old lifestyle studying His word everyday and just drowning myself in His word for over 5 years and it makes me so embarrassed and ashamed that I haven’t stopped smoking.

 

[Karola]

No no sister please forgive me I wasn’t referring to smoking at all. I became a believer almost 6 years ago and I still to this day struggle with smoking. I’ve tried several times and prayed asking for help and I keep failing. I want to quit so badly but every time I try I get headaches and anxiety really bad. It actually causes me to stumble in frustration and sometimes anger. Not anger at people mostly anger at certain situations. Mostly work related. I just don’t know what else to do so for now I’m waiting and hoping that God will give me strength and guidance in His time. I’ve changed so much from my old lifestyle studying His word everyday and just drowning myself in His word for over 5 years and it makes me so embarrassed and ashamed that I haven’t stopped smoking.

I apologise, I misunderstood why you wrote what you did. Don't feel too bad, God knows your heart, and my smoking did not stop me receiving his blessings. It is your heart that matters most to God.

 

[childeye 2]

If God is saying here is your second chance to be obedient to the letter of the law, then what is the point of imputing righteousness by grace through faith?